10 Sagg fleet, Mythbusted?

[Hash]

Arma..what?

Sorry, whats that? :twisted:

Well when Armageddon is out, the Heavy cruiser, moves up a PL.

 

[Burger]

@Locutus
We're getting into paper-scissors-stone territory here. Fleet A always beats fleet B, fleet B always beats fleet C, fleet C always beats fleet A. This will always be the case as long the fleets are so different to each other.

Actually we would have tried Hash's Shadows against the Sag fleet, except he left them at your event and hasn't got them back yet *poke*

 

[Locutus9956]

aye I have big hopes for the Vorlons and Shadows in armageddon

As an aside just to check one thing you guys do know that precise weapons still add one to every damage die against first ones so they DO do quite a bit of damage often? (ie 4 hits rolling 1,3,4 and 6 would in fact score 17 + d6 not 14 +d6 (sure its a small difference but it can be huge when your talking about the number of missiles 10 saggs can put out...)

 

[Hash]

As an aside just to check one thing you guys do know that precise weapons still add one to every damage die against first ones so they DO do quite a bit of damage often? (ie 4 hits rolling 1,3,4 and 6 would in fact score 17 + d6 not 14 +d6 (sure its a small difference but it can be huge when your talking about the number of missiles 10 saggs can put out...)

Yes we did remember to do that! Oh and my Shadows are now returned - many thanks Locutus...

 

[Reaverman]

aye I have big hopes for the Vorlons and Shadows in armageddon

As an aside just to check one thing you guys do know that precise weapons still add one to every damage die against first ones so they DO do quite a bit of damage often? (ie 4 hits rolling 1,3,4 and 6 would in fact score 17 + d6 not 14 +d6 (sure its a small difference but it can be huge when your talking about the number of missiles 10 saggs can put out...)

Yeah, remember we have two ancient players amongst us, mind you dont call Hash ancient to his face he'll rip your arms off :twisted:

 

[prelude_to_war]

Hm, I never considered jumping out early and still managing a win. My mentality was kill as much of their fleet as possible until the end of the game.

As cheesey as it is, cheese vs. cheese cancels eachother so it's a viable method IMO. Actually using this method could be used to good effect with any AJP equipped fleet making the Sag fleet fairly vulnerable.

It looks like you've found the loophole necessary to beat the Sag fleet regularly in a tournament setting. I tip my cap to you - myth apparently busted!

 

[Burger]

Its only really possible when you have a small number of ships, since you give away quite a lot of VP's by jumping out. 20% of the VP's for killing that ship, plus 5 for leaving EA ships on the table.

So for example, 5 White Stars would give away 2 VP's each plus 5. Thats 15 total. To win you'd have to kill 4 Sag's, without losing any WS's. Very unlikely with 10x6AD SAP/Precise coming at you.

But with big fat ships like the Vorlon Heavy Cruiser, yeah it should work all the time! Cheesey fleet selection, vs cheesey tactics.

 

[Reaverman]

Its only really possible when you have a small number of ships, since you give away quite a lot of VP's by jumping out. 20% of the VP's for killing that ship, plus 5 for leaving EA ships on the table.

So for example, 5 White Stars would give away 2 VP's each plus 5. Thats 15 total. To win you'd have to kill 4 Sag's, without losing any WS's. Very unlikely with 10x6AD SAP/Precise coming at you.

But with big fat ships like the Vorlon Heavy Cruiser, yeah it should work all the time! Cheesey fleet selection, vs cheesey tactics.

To fight the Cheese, we must understand the Cheese.

 

[Geekybiker]

Assuming the Vorlon only took his Heavy Cruiser to the table...

In Call To Arms he would give away 6 VP for a tactical withdrawl (20% of 30), and 5 VP for the EA player having ships left on the table. 11 total. So, he could destroy 3 Sag's then jump out, for a 11 vs. 15 victory. Or, 5 Sag's for a 11 vs. 25 victory (for a 17-3 tourney point win).

Space Superiority, he would give away 6 for tactical withdrawl, 5 for EA having ships left, and 5 for each quadrant under EA control. Most likely this would be 2, but could easily be 4. If 2, he'd have to kill 5 Sag's for a 21 vs 25 VP victory. If 4, he'd have to kill 7 for 31 vs 35.

Annihilation, obviously if he jumped out he'd lose 17-3. Not recommended.

A pretty cheesy way to win though, we endorse the "stay and fight!" tactic. Of course another cheesy way to win would be to simply play reeeeeaaalllllly sloooooooowly... so that you have killed 3 Sag's, and your Vorlons are still alive when the 2 hour time limit runs out. 15 vs 0 VP's, for a 20-0 tourney point split. Beardy.

You must be using different tables than me....
SFOS pg 7
tactical withdrawl- 25% of the vp (7.5 rounded to 8 for the HC or 2.5 to 3 for the Destroyer)
Destroyed sag- 5pts
hodling ground 5pts

And tourney lists pg 4
draw 10-10
win by less than 10 13/7
win by 10 or more 17/3
Fleet completely destroyed 20-0


For for the first senario its 13-0 when you leave the table. You need 3 kills to win at all. 5 kills to get more than the 13/7 split. If the sag's pop the other vorlon ship, you need to kill 7.

2nd senario
23 likely points for ea the moment you leave. possibly 28. Good chance the destroyer gets destoyed making it 33-38pts for ea if you leave. You'd have to kill 7-8 for a minor win most likely. 9 to have any real chance of the 17/3 split

Last one it would be a 17/3 not 20/0. Its fleet destroyed in the book. 15 to 0 vp falls under "more than 10" Its actually really fricken hard to get a 20-0 win in the opponent decides to run for it. one ship gets off the board and you dont have a fleet destroyed result.


Against a intelligent sag player you'd be lucky to ever get more than the 13/7 split. Honestly the best case senerio I think is the both vorlons jumping out giving 16vp to the ea player. That's 4 kills for the minor win. Think the destroyer can last at least 2 turns of concentrated fire?

 

[Burger]

You must be using different tables than me....
SFOS pg 7
tactical withdrawl- 25% of the vp (7.5 rounded to 8 for the HC or 2.5 to 3 for the Destroyer)

I thought it was knocked down to 20% for the tourney rules. I'll check on this later.

Against a intelligent sag player you'd be lucky to ever get more than the 13/7 split. Honestly the best case senerio I think is the both vorlons jumping out giving 16vp to the ea player. That's 4 kills for the minor win. Think the destroyer can last at least 2 turns of concentrated fire?

The destroyer can just hang around the back, no need to get into Sag's range. Or, deploy backwards, and make a tactical withdrawl in turn 1.

 

[Triggy]

For the record the Sag fleet was beaten by the Hunterx2+Scout fleet in the first Vassal Tournament.

well one broken fleet, destroyed by another broken fleet...sounds like irony to me

I have to say though in this case the all Sagittarius fleet was pretty well commanded (aside from shooting everything at the Scout on turn 1 allowing the Hunters to get in range - the Scout was only ever a decoy). Although both fleets are/were broken, the Sagittarius fleet was clearly better stats wise both on paper and in game and it took a lot of cunning to beat it.

 

[Geekybiker]

Although both fleets are/were broken, the Sagittarius fleet was clearly better stats wise both on paper and in game and it took a lot of cunning to beat it.

I can vouch for that. The shadow's ability to take on the Sag fleet is highly terrain dependant. You need to be able to get to places where only a couple ships can fire at you at a time. I think trying a furball with the hunters vs the sag is pretty much suicide.

 

[Silvereye]

Against a intelligent sag player you'd be lucky to ever get more than the 13/7 split. Honestly the best case senerio I think is the both vorlons jumping out giving 16vp to the ea player. That's 4 kills for the minor win. Think the destroyer can last at least 2 turns of concentrated fire?

The destroyer can just hang around the back, no need to get into Sag's range. Or, deploy backwards, and make a tactical withdrawl in turn 1.

So how about taking the destroyer out of the equation. Would a Raid point of Vorlon fighters be better additions as their destruction/withdrawl does not hand over as many VPs as the Destroyer?

 

[Geekybiker]

Against a intelligent sag player you'd be lucky to ever get more than the 13/7 split. Honestly the best case senerio I think is the both vorlons jumping out giving 16vp to the ea player. That's 4 kills for the minor win. Think the destroyer can last at least 2 turns of concentrated fire?

The destroyer can just hang around the back, no need to get into Sag's range. Or, deploy backwards, and make a tactical withdrawl in turn 1.

So how about taking the destroyer out of the equation. Would a Raid point of Vorlon fighters be better additions as their destruction/withdrawl does not hand over as many VPs as the Destroyer?

Worse actually. You only have to destroy one flight per wing to get the VP for aux craft bought seperately. I mean its 1vp less overall, but easier to achieve. Though fighters do stand a better chance of staying out of the way of the sag.....

 

[lastbesthope]

Worse actually. You only have to destroy one flight per wing to get the VP for aux craft bought seperately. I mean its 1vp less overall, but easier to achieve. Though fighters do stand a better chance of staying out of the way of the sag.....

It's not as bad as it sounds, you get VP for a wing of seperate aux craft for each wing's worth or part thereof destroyed.

So if you're up against 3 wings of T'bolts and only destroy 2 flights, one from wing A and another from Wing B, that's only 2 flights destroyed so as per the example in SFOS P. 7 I think you'd only get VP for one wing of aux craft, even though the destroyed craft came from two seperate wings.

LBH

 

[Reaverman]

Against a intelligent sag player you'd be lucky to ever get more than the 13/7 split

Give me a break, Sagg fleets are no brainers. You dont have to be intelligent to use them, and intelligence was not burgers problems. Intelligence does not give you 20" movement, or 3 turns a turn, or even fast loading weapons!

 

[Burger]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how I could have got out of arc, in the photos of turns 2 and 3... nobody seems to have an answer to that do they.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't see any way out of the cruiser's line of fire in either turn 2 or 3...

 

[Reaverman]

I don't see any way out of the cruiser's line of fire in either turn 2 or 3...

Thank you

 

[Hash]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how I could have got out of arc, in the photos of turns 2 and 3... nobody seems to have an answer to that do they.

Is there anything you would have done differently? I mean apart from making sure that one Sag was in arc and maybe targetting the destroyer with another broadside in that first volley?