Why does mongoose release an incomplete game?

[weasel_fierce]

Here's the deal though. Mongoose is trying to sell a product. Its their job to convince me to buy it.

I've bought every Runequest book to date, since its a product they convinced me to buy, since its very good, despite a few niggling and easily fixed issues.

They convinced me to buy Victory at Sea since its brilliant.

Evolution looks like it will be a great game. Which makes me sad that the execution has been so strange. Its not like the idea of LAW's is completely alien, or that miniatures gamers are beyond converting.

Adding a few weapon options for things like sniper rifles, anti tank weapons and such would take all of 4 lines of rules on the unit cards.
Then sell them in separate "specialist" packs. Worked for SST, 40K and just about any other "main stream" mini's game out there.


So eh. "suck it up"

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

It's hardly fair to expect that of a game with 7 units released across 4 factions though.

Err, actually, yes it is fair, in fact I can think of no other wargame where this has happened.

Privateer Press started out this way when they released Warmachine, and again when they did Hordes. AT-43 is being released in smaller waves than BF:Evo, with fewer factions. IIRC, Aberrant (Rezolution) and Corvus Belli (Infinity) are also releasing their games incrementally. So, yeah, this has happened before in the SF/Fantasy market. In some cases quite successfully.

Now, that doesn't mean you don't have a valid complaint. I would have rather seen two infantry releases for each faction, or at least smaller vehicles so Wave 1 games weren't dominated by the "tank or no tank" question. And it would even allow you to build up your army slowly, just like in real life :? . But, the Warmachine model (4 factions, big stuff in the initial release) has at least shown itself to be commercially viable, so I suppose that's the way Mongoose went. Hopefully they'll avoid the early Warmachine mistakes, and everyone will be happy in four months instead of 16...

EXACTLY. Pilgrim, if you've never encountered this before then I've got to wonder how many games have you gotten in on at the very beginning - it's very seldom that a breand new game has a full range of minis from the get-go

 

[weasel_fierce]

Mini's ?

Or rules ?

The two are NOT the same.

Outside of the clicky/collectible/prepaint box phenomenom, I cant recall any game that didnt provide at least a provisionary army list or "stat up your troop" thing from the get go. How else do you get people interested ?

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Here's the deal though. Mongoose is trying to sell a product. Its their job to convince me to buy it.

I've bought every Runequest book to date, since its a product they convinced me to buy, since its very good, despite a few niggling and easily fixed issues.

They convinced me to buy Victory at Sea since its brilliant.

Evolution looks like it will be a great game. Which makes me sad that the execution has been so strange. Its not like the idea of LAW's is completely alien, or that miniatures gamers are beyond converting.

Adding a few weapon options for things like sniper rifles, anti tank weapons and such would take all of 4 lines of rules on the unit cards.
Then sell them in separate "specialist" packs. Worked for SST, 40K and just about any other "main stream" mini's game out there.


So eh. "suck it up"

It's very weasy to say that they should be doing this and that, but you don't know the economics of how the game is being produced. The fact that they're only working on production of models a wave or two ahead of the release schedule suggests that the sales of one are driving the production of the next wave - specifically the costs of sculpting, moulding and producing the initial batch.

But there is also game balance to consider. Note how the 2 factions with superior tanks didn't get LAWs or RPGs in their initial squads - this allows for a somewhat nuanced game. It's the same reason the MEA got technicals insead of the Zulfiqar as their first vehicle release, it gives the game more of a feel to it, makes the 4 factions more unique.

It's a shame that this is a stumbling block for you, but the realities of producing a wargame demand a steady release of models rather than flooding the market in one go - few companies can support that kind of investment up front for a game that may not sell. I'd say less "suck it up" and more "bear with us", but it's your money and your choice in the end.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Mini's ?

Or rules ?

The two are NOT the same.

Outside of the clicky/collectible/prepaint box phenomenom, I cant recall any game that didnt provide at least a provisionary army list or "stat up your troop" thing from the get go. How else do you get people interested ?

No arguement there - and I think it's a damn shame that the main rules don't have the initial unit stats in them any more, but IMO that's a minor point rather than a deal breaker. It's not like Mongoose are keeping the starts from us.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Given the expense of buying into the game, it is a stumbling block. With a baby on the way, I only have so much disposable income, so Im more inclined to buy a game that offers everything rather than a "model driven" design approach.

I'll still buy the rulebook because like I said, I think it will be a fun enough game , and I collect rules anyways.


in any event, Im not really adding anything to this forum at this rate, and Mongoose has picked their approach, so I shall go back to lurking, untill we get more stuff about the WW2 game

 

[Gibbs]

It's an interesting discussion: the benefits of releasing the game this way rather than releasing another way. As another post said, what's done is done. Creative feedback is good though.

I for one have enjoyed the way that BF:evo was initially released...every army having an infantry squad and an MBT. What this did was actually give you a feel for the most basic vehicle *and* infantry rules as well as a chance to test your tactical skills. USMC and EFTF (and to a certain extent MEA) players were forced to adopt tactics that required them to try to avoid tanks and heavy armour which in all reality they would try to do on the battlefiel. Yes it may have been good to get LAWs for the squads but that would have taken away some of the more interesting aspects of gameplay that it seems Mongoose was trying to promote.

You will notice that as new waves of units are released your tactics will be forced to change (mine have) and you will be required to build on the basic tactics and rules that you originally learnt. For example, how many people will actually start taking massive amounts of armour when they are facing Super Cobras? How many players will actually hide their forces in buildings when they are facing an army with air superiority? I really appreciate the way in which we've been given through the gradual release a way to get a grips with basic rules that can then be built on by adding snipers, LAWs air units etc.

Yes like a lot of you I would have appreciated some LAWs with my USMC but not having them has made me tactically aware of the need for combined arms *not* just a unit of space marines that can kill everyone and anyone that strays into LOS.

In then end, not including LAWs and sniper rifles reduces the one man army style of play and creates an environment where you are forced to learn quickly how to be flexible, how to out manoever the other player and a healthy respect for MBTs (unlike in computer games it is much harder to take them out unless you have IEDs).

I'm not disagreeing with those that said the game needed an infantry LAW capability (I would have liked it too); that's one view, its valid, worth noting and should be accepted. But on the other hand, I have found that what MGP has actually done has been great too and makes the LAWs issue for me less of an issue.

 

[tneva82]

Then sell them in separate "specialist" packs. Worked for SST, 40K and just about any other "main stream" mini's game out there.

And probably that's what they'll do...With rules accompanying them.

 

[Paladin]

With all due respect... I have one response to the childlike, selfishness being displayed, "Suck it up and play with what you got or don't play at all!"

Tempting, tempting. Let's say we compromise, and I'll just not play against you .

Your call.

I was speaking more toward PilGrim and weasel_fierce. My apologies for not quoting or "targetting" them more specifically.

Mongoose isn't WizKids, they don't have money to burn and take huge risks or millions to invest in a game to have everything "perfect" before it starts. They are pushing forward and trying to meet demand as fast as they can. Six to twelve months from now, the bickering over what should or shouldn't have been in the first release or how MP arranged things for release will be irrelevant.

 

[Paladin]

Outside of the clicky/collectible/prepaint box phenomenom, I cant recall any game that didnt provide at least a provisionary army list or "stat up your troop" thing from the get go. How else do you get people interested ?

You mean like the free rules set and wave 1 cards you get in S&P?
or all of the other unit cards that will also be provided for free online?

 

[Paladin]

Given the expense of buying into the game, it is a stumbling block. With a baby on the way, I only have so much disposable income, so Im more inclined to buy a game that offers everything rather than a "model driven" design approach.

What are you not getting that you would still like if you were to get the rulebook and free unit stats? Given that you have a lower income, it would seem that a slower release is actually more beneficial because you could purchase items at a slower rate rather than be noncompetive against those who have a larger income to be able to buy all the units they want straight out of the gate.

 

[Xorrandor]

With all due respect... I have one response to the childlike, selfishness being displayed, "Suck it up and play with what you got or don't play at all!"

Tempting, tempting. Let's say we compromise, and I'll just not play against you .

Your call.

I was speaking more toward PilGrim and weasel_fierce. My apologies for not quoting or "targetting" them more specifically.

Mongoose isn't WizKids, they don't have money to burn and take huge risks or millions to invest in a game to have everything "perfect" before it starts. They are pushing forward and trying to meet demand as fast as they can. Six to twelve months from now, the bickering over what should or shouldn't have been in the first release or how MP arranged things for release will be irrelevant.

Fair enough. I actually meant that smiley, after all: the distance between Kentucky and Colorado is far more likely to prevent us from playing than some minor spat on an Internet forum .

I do think the comparison with Privateer Press is the best one, although Mongoose has more resources than they did starting out. And indeed, Warmachine pretty much leveled out after twelve months or so, with releases generally being on time and filling in minor gaps instead of big ones by that point.

But six months from now, the bickering will be over what was released in the first wave of SST:Evo. And I'm happy to note that two of the factions have exclusively infantry scheduled for wave 1, and only one unit (the Fenirs) is at the "MBT" level of power. This obviously isn't the result of my feedback, which came after they released the schedule, but it does at least mean some marketing guy was thinking along the same lines I was. (On second thought, maybe that isn't a great sign... )

 

[Jellicoe]

It's an interesting discussion: the benefits of releasing the game this way rather than releasing another way. As another post said, what's done is done. Creative feedback is good though.

I for one have enjoyed the way that BF:evo was initially released...every army having an infantry squad and an MBT.

Yep could not agree more. If find this discussion a little strange. By the autumn if won't be an issue, by next year surely just academic with lots of units being released. Personally I like it this way invest a bit, try it out, develop some ideas and then get bigger. Theoretically a game like this is never "complete" as there is always something else to add or change. The game is as cheap as you want to make it. There is no reason why you can't play it for a very modest sum of money to start with.

 

[Paladin]

Fair enough. I actually meant that smiley, after all: the distance between Kentucky and Colorado is far more likely to prevent us from playing than some minor spat on an Internet forum .

Got ya. If you're going to GenCon this year, I'm up for a game.

I do think the comparison with Privateer Press is the best one, although Mongoose has more resources than they did starting out. And indeed, Warmachine pretty much leveled out after twelve months or so, with releases generally being on time and filling in minor gaps instead of big ones by that point.

PP is probably about the best example out there, but it still doesn't fit perfectly. Mongoose has a large number of game systems already on their plate so they have to balance the funding/development of them along with the new game.

 

[Gibbs]

It's an interesting discussion: the benefits of releasing the game this way rather than releasing another way. As another post said, what's done is done. Creative feedback is good though.

I for one have enjoyed the way that BF:evo was initially released...every army having an infantry squad and an MBT.

Yep could not agree more. If find this discussion a little strange. By the autumn if won't be an issue, by next year surely just academic with lots of units being released. Personally I like it this way invest a bit, try it out, develop some ideas and then get bigger. Theoretically a game like this is never "complete" as there is always something else to add or change. The game is as cheap as you want to make it. There is no reason why you can't play it for a very modest sum of money to start with.

Ummm It's autumn for me now. :lol:
I agree Jellicoe, what's done is done and the rest is merely speculative and academic. I tried to invest a bit but that didn't work. I now have a 1500 point MEA force, a 2000 point USMC and a 2000 point EFTF force! Owww, it hurts in the financials! :lol:

 

[weasel_fierce]

I guess we are talking past each other, or maybe we come from different gaming backgrounds, but I dont see the idea of the "must release a model to have stats for it" meme.

I know its considered cool to dump on GW but you can buy a book and plan out what you want to get, do some proxies or mock ups and try it out, and get people interested in it. This was the case even back in the day, when half the models, they didnt even know if they'd make a model for.
Heck, Victory at Sea proved that Mongoose arent strangers to this either, and as a consequence has been picked up by quite a few people locally, and gotten good rep at TMP and other sites, for what thats worth.

This goes doubly so for a new game trying to break into a market. If you want to sell a game to some kids, do you want to sell them the game with 2 units "oh, there'll be like crazy tanks and helicopters. But we dont know what they will be capable of, and you have to wait 4 months to know" or a game that tells them upfront what they can do ?


Ah well.

 

[Outkast_Samurai]

I have to agree that having the stats available prior to model release is vital for a game to grow. I know that had I not been able to see some of the upcoming units thanks to Hiro's cards I would not have bought into the game already. When you're picking your faction you often have a general idea of the playstyle you have or are going to be using for this game/army. If you can't find out if the force you pick are going to fit that why would you waste your money getting something that you're not going to be happy with?

 

[Turtle]

Unlike other games, you will have stats, for free, for every unit in BFE. THe thing is, you won't get these stats ahead of time.

So the only difference is that unlike other games that release an army book you must pay for, Mongoose releases all the stats online as a free download on release of the model. In essence, you have to wait for the units to come out, but once they do you get the stats for free.

So you just need patience. Just hold off on buying the game until you see enough units that you like released.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Unlike other games, you will have stats, for free, for every unit in BFE. THe thing is, you won't get these stats ahead of time.

So the only difference is that unlike other games that release an army book you must pay for, Mongoose releases all the stats online as a free download on release of the model. In essence, you have to wait for the units to come out, but once they do you get the stats for free.

So you just need patience. Just hold off on buying the game until you see enough units that you like released.

Well, thats true. Good point

 

[Hiromoon]

I donno... I like having the ease of planning out an army before the models release, not when the models are released, Turtle.