Tzarevitch
Mongoose
Tolwyn said:
I would agree
Tzarvitch
What happened to the Narn???????
- Thread starter patton4014
- Start date
I would agree
Tzarvitch
katadder said:so it would outgun the omega at range due to having a one shot e-mine. then it would seriously outgun the omega close up.
the g'quan is fine. seriously all people wanted in 1e was 4AD of beams
Lies!!! I wanted forward arc to represent on screen evidence!
It's true that folks only wanted +1 AD of beam, but the Omega only had 4 AD at the time. They were trying to bring it up to the omega. Since there was a general upgrading of firepower, many feel the G'Quan again got jipped. We're told that the e-mine changes were the firepower upgrade, but a lot of us look back at the options we lost for raw damage and wonder if we got an upgrade, especially on the G'Quan which became a one shot weapon.
Oh and yeah, Hiffano is right.... front was wanted, but most said they would settle for +1 AD on the beam, assuming nothing else was changing. To bring that up when you've changed the whole environment in which that request was made is just plain insulting. You wouldn't consider it an raise if you pay went up 10% but everyone around you went up 25%.
Ripple
Oh and yeah, Hiffano is right.... front was wanted, but most said they would settle for +1 AD on the beam, assuming nothing else was changing. To bring that up when you've changed the whole environment in which that request was made is just plain insulting. You wouldn't consider it an raise if you pay went up 10% but everyone around you went up 25%.
Ripple
To Tzarevitch
It's not just the G'Quon and the pair of Rongoth. We also see some other weird issues with the G'Vrahn vs the Bin'Tak. Why ever take the lumbering hulk there?
The T'Loth is a great model, an canon ship and generally not worth taking in either of its forms. Folks would like there to be a reason to grab one in the standard scenarios. I love my Var'Nics mind you, they look cool and hit like a truck, but they aren't canon. I can thnk of builds for these, but the game makes it a real chore.
We have the twofer pair at the bottom, and we need them, but a lot of folks don't like them (models or stats) and feel the twofer is cheesy.
Again, it's not that the race isn't viable, even competitive, just that the ships that make it work aren't the ones folks want to pull out of their box.
Ripple
It's not just the G'Quon and the pair of Rongoth. We also see some other weird issues with the G'Vrahn vs the Bin'Tak. Why ever take the lumbering hulk there?
The T'Loth is a great model, an canon ship and generally not worth taking in either of its forms. Folks would like there to be a reason to grab one in the standard scenarios. I love my Var'Nics mind you, they look cool and hit like a truck, but they aren't canon. I can thnk of builds for these, but the game makes it a real chore.
We have the twofer pair at the bottom, and we need them, but a lot of folks don't like them (models or stats) and feel the twofer is cheesy.
Again, it's not that the race isn't viable, even competitive, just that the ships that make it work aren't the ones folks want to pull out of their box.
Ripple
Hm... the Omega has the longer range in secondaries, more and better fighters, interceptors, more anti fighter, mini beams (although slow loading) and an aft beam of course.
I would guess there are several advantages for the Omega that even the two AD Beam out.
I think the Ea players would be more interested in a change to the Chronos.
I would guess there are several advantages for the Omega that even the two AD Beam out.
I think the Ea players would be more interested in a change to the Chronos.
Celisasu
Mongoose
Lets say you had two generic ships in the same fleet. They have none of the legacy of the G'Quan or Omega behind them. So the only thing you're judging them on is their stats which coincidently match up exactly with the Omega and G'Quan. Which would you play? I can tell you right now that I'd choose the one with the Omega's stats without even having to think much about it. While it's not the best Battle level ship in the game, it's far enough above the G'Quan so as to involve no decision making whatsoever. That's where the problem is. And then if you compare the G'Quan to one of the best Battle level ships in the game things get worse.
I do like th T'loth in terms of "go on then try and kill me" and seen it used well, however as a Centauri player - the Gquon don't scare me - its beam is BS (broesight I mean) and the energy mines are one shot too so sually not too bad. The rest of the guns are 8" so bit rubbish really. It kind of needs a couple of AD on the beam to make it scary! (and i hate the Narn)
(and i hate the Narn)I agree with katadder, I really don't see the obvious aspect of this decision. I actually think they're both about the same and that most people are seriously underestimating e-mines.Celisasu said:
Secondaries favour the G'Quan, primaries are about equal (but significantly different), the Omega is very slightly tougher (against most foes) and has a couple of extra fighters. Everything else is almost identical.
katadder said:
Sorry as soon as the fight gets close and personal the Narn are dead. The secondaries of a G'Quan are not halve as scary as it seems and the bore side is next to useless. So the best strategy is to kill the opponent before they get to close!
I'd rather take an Omega ore Kabrokta (stat wise) if I had the choice or anything with a front Beam.
Anyway if the Ea players would argue that the G'Quan gets to strong compared to the Omega (with 6ad Beam) i would be happy to drop a few AD of secondaries or E mine or both, because some seam to overestimate them.
Couldnt agree less, the G'Quan and Omega have both got their benefits but the G'Quan is hardly a cripple. I know what Id rather have against Minbari for sure!
Essentially this comes down to having 2AD less than the Omega.
No bearing on the fact that it has 55 damage points along with armour 6. While it doesnt have interceptors (but then most races dont - you want them go EA) it is a little better at withstanding beam weapons.
No bearing on the fact that the emine if used with some panache can be devastating, not merely in terms of damage points, but the havoc it can cause in your opponents set up and moving. Again, some tactical flair can use this to the Narns advantage. Fear of emines can be a potent weapon.
Then we have the secondaries, ok, they are only 8" but 10AD of TW and 6 vanila is hardly ineffective - if it is you aint shooting at the right target.
Ooops, we are back to that 2AD of beam..... Its hardly next to useless next to the Omega - thats just silly. :wink:
Essentially this comes down to having 2AD less than the Omega.
No bearing on the fact that it has 55 damage points along with armour 6. While it doesnt have interceptors (but then most races dont - you want them go EA) it is a little better at withstanding beam weapons.
No bearing on the fact that the emine if used with some panache can be devastating, not merely in terms of damage points, but the havoc it can cause in your opponents set up and moving. Again, some tactical flair can use this to the Narns advantage. Fear of emines can be a potent weapon.
Then we have the secondaries, ok, they are only 8" but 10AD of TW and 6 vanila is hardly ineffective - if it is you aint shooting at the right target.
Ooops, we are back to that 2AD of beam..... Its hardly next to useless next to the Omega - thats just silly. :wink:
Tzarevitch
Mongoose
Hans Olo said:
I quite agree. I'd happily drop dice off of the secondaries or the E-mine for more on the beam. Geez, the G'Quan has the same foreward beam firepower as the Var'Nic at a priority lower and it isn't that much better than a Ka'Toc. The only real difference is range. A one-shot e-mine and short range secondaries do not make up for the difference.
After the e-mine fires, the Var'Nic badly outguns a G'Quan at any range over 8. At ranges over 8 a Ka'Toc almost equals a G'Quan and you aren't all that far ahead of the Thentus. That is how bad the situation really is. I am not sure how anyone thought a 1-shot e-mine or range-8 low-power secondaries make up for a popgun of a main gun.
8"secondaries are really for defense against patrol boats, and super-heavy fighters. Nothing else will get close enough. Anything else that does get close enough is too tough for the secondaries to dent.
Tzarevitch
so let me get this right, in other threads I have seen, mainly on bases everyone has problems keeping their ships apart and small bases really help. but put it in a thread where ships have 8" weapons and suddenly its a major problem.
16AD of weapons all round is great. you can hit drakh raiders, bluestars or any of the other vessels that like to gang up in multiple arcs and keep hitting them no matter where they go.
also I never have problems getting within 8" of targets. hell my bimiths have no choice but to do that as they dont even have the beams or the e-mines. the g'quan is a good vessel. as said its a brawler not a sniper. if you cant get within 8" try this, have a scout on board and bring it through a JP right in the middle of your enemys fleet. i guarantee there it will do better than most other battle level vessels.
16AD of weapons all round is great. you can hit drakh raiders, bluestars or any of the other vessels that like to gang up in multiple arcs and keep hitting them no matter where they go.
also I never have problems getting within 8" of targets. hell my bimiths have no choice but to do that as they dont even have the beams or the e-mines. the g'quan is a good vessel. as said its a brawler not a sniper. if you cant get within 8" try this, have a scout on board and bring it through a JP right in the middle of your enemys fleet. i guarantee there it will do better than most other battle level vessels.
katadder said:
Indeed!! Work with what you have. All it takes is a little creativity as shown above.
And as for the 8" problems.................. Are we talking the same game? Usually it ends up a total mess, stuff everywhere - the perfect party for G'Quan.
I really do seriously think some Narn players should go back to the drawing board and get their tactics sorted, or go play EA :wink:
Said it already, fear - Emines, capitalise on it - even if it means not firing it for a few turns. Unless your oponent is an idiot you should keep the one shot ones just to watch your opponent squirm.
