What happened to the Narn???????

[inq101]

G'Quan

What would make it better,

Cut the secondaries in half but up the range by two inches.
Drop the e-mine a die or two
Up the laser to the 6 AD bore that the Omega has.

{deleated a load of stuff for convenience -Tom}

Ripple

I don't agree, changes the Narns big-ship philosophy IMO. If you want to make it canon to what we see drop the e-mine, double the laser (probably do some other stuff to balance the ship out). Make a variant (using the current G'Quan stats) that carries an e-mine.

In another episode we see the G'Quan firing secondaries at some fighters (small ship?). The number of pulses doesn't seem overwhelming.

This would have been the AF 1 trait.

Tom

 

[emperorpenguin]

In the one episode we see the e-mines there are a number of G'Quans (7?) but we only see two emines (I think, been a while). Maybe these things are a refit like the Centauri mass drivers, we certainly see more G'Quans without them that with them.Ripple

We see energy mines on every G'Quan in the show believe it or not....

Check out the e mine firing ships in "Long Twilight..." and see how they all have a glowing white light at the front of the vessel (as indeed do all G'Quans). Then notice how that light launches out and is no longer visible after the e-mines have fired!

 

[angelus2000]

My .02 cents on the subject of the G'Quan.

Of all the ships in both the show and fleet lists, the G;Quan is closest to the Omega in both function and form. To be honest, with the sole excpetion of the Emine system, they should be near identical in terms of weapons, speed, manueverability. Both ships fire red main Beams, both fire salvo pulse fire, both are portrayed as being somewhat slow and unresponsive to the helm. Its the best comparison to use when judging something that is subjective, namely each ships "usefullness" and power levels. As such,

G'Quan
Speed 6
Turn 1/45
Hull 6
Troops 8
Craft: 2 Frazi
Damage 58/14
Crew 64/17
Traits: AF 1, Int 1, JE, Lumbering

Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 6 Beam, DD
Emine 30 F 4 AP, TD, OS, Energy Mine
Medium Ion Cannon 10 F/A/P/S 8/12/12/6 TL

Changes
Damage 58: Justifiable in light of Fluff. G'Quans are supposed to be tough, and at 58 is the biggest damage track of the Big 4 battle PL ships
Crew 64: Much higher crew than any other battle PL even after being lowered, I've yet to see any Fluff that says G'Quans are that overcrewed
Interceptors 1: Arguable here, on screen evidence, but no fluff justification
Heavy Laser Cannon: Been argued ad nauseum, pushs it to Omega Levels
Emine: Loss of 2AD. Despite arguements to the contrary, I've never viewed Emines to be a "ship-killer"( I still think TD is OTT, DD with slightly more AD would have been better), but rather a "force degrader" used to soften up opposing ships before actually engaging with beams and cannons. Also need to Justify the 2AD beam increase.
Pulse cannons: Dropped. I've never seen torrents of Pulse fire pouring from G'Quans. Even at range 8, G'Quan secondaries are brutal ATM, packing far more than any Raid and Below ship(In fact, the G'quans and Bintaks are very odd in this respect, that all round huge AD is out of character compared to the rest of thier fleet).
Light Ion Cannons: Slightly reduced AD, and rearranged somewhat. AD added to the sides while reduced in front and Aft. Beams are the main up front armament, aft has some big honking engines in the way. Side AD increased to add to its capabilities in the brawl.


Summary: Of all the changes, only the Addition of Interceptors bothers me, and is the one that doens't really feel right. I feel the rest of the changes much more accurately reflect on-screen evidence of the G'Quan, and keeps much more in character with the rest of the Narn list(actually I'd suggest doing the pulse/ion cannon changes to Bin'Taks as well). Emine AD might be too low, and bumped back to 6AD might be necessary.

 

[Triggy]

When people are stating that e-mines aren't a major threat, bear in mind that JMS himself said that the Narn e-mines seriously hurt the Shadow ships when they fired at Zha'ha'dum... this to me suggests that their current incarnation is either fine or on the low side for damage output

 

[inq101]

When people are stating that e-mines aren't a major threat, bear in mind that JMS himself said that the Narn e-mines seriously hurt the Shadow ships when they fired at Zha'ha'dum...

Thats just because the Narn player got a lucky roll

 

[dag'karlove]

Ok either my Book is screwed or i just cant read, Nope My Book doent show it. When did the Gquan Get Interceptors one and Hull 58 I have it at 55. I did Get one of teh very first 2ed books so maybe thats where its hosed.

 

[dag'karlove]

Yep, (I just checked the PDF Books i have) that data is flawed Angelus Gquan or any of its variants lack interceptors (only narn ship that has it is the Gvrahn at 4 interceptors.) The Hull is 55 and Crew is 70. Im curious to know where you got your stuff from.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Yep, (I just checked the PDF Books i have) that data is flawed Angelus Gquan or any of its variants lack interceptors (only narn ship that has it is the Gvrahn at 4 interceptors.) The Hull is 55 and Crew is 70. Im curious to know where you got your stuff from.

read the guy's post, he is talking about HIS idea for a G'Quan....

 

[patton4014]

When people are stating that e-mines aren't a major threat, bear in mind that JMS himself said that the Narn e-mines seriously hurt the Shadow ships when they fired at Zha'ha'dum... this to me suggests that their current incarnation is either fine or on the low side for damage output

This is somewhat why I started this thread. I have felt for years that emines have been underpowered. When you see a Shadow Ship needing to be helped off the battlefield after being hit with JUST emines, well it should tell you something.

We are talking about over charged, nuke style weapons here.

 

[angelus2000]

The Shadow Ship that helped off the field was the one that got hit by 3Gquans simultaneously with thier Beams(had the long bottom tendril blown off by all 3 beams converging at once.

 

[angelus2000]

If your really wanted to make EMines accurate...

In RL, the power of an sort of explosion wavefront is inversely poportional to its diameter. Meaning the farther out it goes, it loses power by a 1:4 ratio (1 unit farther away equate to something like 75% percent los of power if you add another unit to it.)

The best way to reflect this ingame would be to make the Emine template vary in its damage the farther out from the point of detonation. A simple way:

Point to 1", SAP, TD
1" to 2" AP DD
2" to 3" normal.

This would wildly throw off the current AD stats for Emine ships. The template would retain its effectiveness against light skirmish and raid ships, but in order to kill heavily armored ships Emines would have to be much more specifically targeted at them than the current rules.

Thoughts?

 

[dag'karlove]

I cant disagree with the simple logic With the exception that we dont know How a thermonuclear blastwave would disapate in space. We also dont know the Megatonage of the blast that an emin throws out etc etc. Good In theory Howver I still like the way my emines work now so stop nerfing them more you narn hater

 

[peeNpoop]

Well you could use a better ship than the G'Quan and just call it a G'Quan and use a G'Quan model for it .

 

[Gunnvaldr]

If your really wanted to make EMines accurate...

In RL, the power of an sort of explosion wavefront is inversely poportional to its diameter. Meaning the farther out it goes, it loses power by a 1:4 ratio (1 unit farther away equate to something like 75% percent los of power if you add another unit to it.)

The best way to reflect this ingame would be to make the Emine template vary in its damage the farther out from the point of detonation. A simple way:

Point to 1", SAP, TD
1" to 2" AP DD
2" to 3" normal.

This would wildly throw off the current AD stats for Emine ships. The template would retain its effectiveness against light skirmish and raid ships, but in order to kill heavily armored ships Emines would have to be much more specifically targeted at them than the current rules.

Thoughts?

looks sexy and still effective to me. Then again I'm a big fan head player :/

 

[angelus2000]

I cant disagree with the simple logic With the exception that we dont know How a thermonuclear blastwave would disapate in space. We also dont know the Megatonage of the blast that an emin throws out etc etc. Good In theory

In a way it is a nerf, but looked at another angle its actually an upgrade. What it does allow and in fact is geared toward is reducing the main complaint against Emines while still retaining, even enhancing its good points. Yes, a thermonuclear bomb going off right next to a ship should inflict severe damage, if not outright killing a lighter one. My main gripe(and I think others if you read between lines) is that Emines effectiveness does not have any sort of migitating factor; it either hits with full force or doesn't at all. The ability to hit each and every ship underneath a template thats 6" across at FULL strength is a HUGELY strong advantage; one the Emine proponents tend to neglect; while its usually the foremost thing in mind for its detractors. You pratically cannot operate ships in squadron against Narn for fearing of getting hit with Emine spam, with a minimum of 2 if not more getting smacked at the same time with a FULL strength blast.

As for your arguement "not knowing what thermonukes do in space", this is actually a very simple thing to prove, and is one of the few areas where real life hard science and physics can provide an answer for.

To be honest, I have no idead doing the varying Emine strength would be applied to the game. I imagine most Emine ships would have to be restatted in AD. I'd imagine One Shot could be dropped from most launchers without a reset to AD. Ships with SL could probably benefit froma slight upgrade in AD (no more than 1-3 in most cases, including the Dag'Kar). But this would have to be verified with some extensve playtesting, which leaves me in doubt this idea would see official light day for a long time, if ever.

EDIT: As for actually doing this one table, it would not amount to much additional recordkeeping, if any. When firing an Emine you already have to measure the range either by tape measure or template, and the one GF9 makes already provides range circles an inchs.

 

[Locutus9956]

You could model them kind of like nova cannons in BFG perhaps? (direct hit does loads of damage but ships under take much less damage?)

 

[angelus2000]

Thats another way to do it, but not really fluffy. IIRC Nova cannons were designed to do direct hits( just had such a big boom if they missed it would still do damage), Emines are intended to be area effect weapons.

 

[Morgoth]

At the moment I gernally satisfied with the Narn fleet as it stands. However there are a few things i would of liked to see changed.

The Rothan and Rongoth both suffer from being overlooked . I was able to use the Rothan quite succesfully when it was a raid ship. Now that they are both skirmish its rare to see them ever used. The ships should be hull 6 to make up for their proportionally lacking firepower.

I would also like to see the Tarza torpedo fighter, the EA seem to have a stupid amount of fighters!! Apparently they are the best sellers so they got all the new stuff and ships etc!! not that I am bitter or anything......

The G'Quan despite being a very canon ship just doesn't see any use in my fleet!! I would rather take the G'Lan. The G'Lan's beams are so much more potent. The G'Quan definitetly needs an upgrade to its beam!! I would also like to see either an upping of its anti-fighter or give it interceptor 1. Considering that the Centauri have interceptors and a young race like the humans have them too it seems daft that the Narn don't despite them having large access to Centauri vessels!! I am not talking higher levels of interceptors but any is better than none.

The Dag'kar, again another ship that just doesn't see action in my fleets. Why they just explode like zepplins!! Hull 4 at Raid level!! Come on!!! At least give it hull 5 like it used to be in 1st Ed. And give it some anti-fighter weapons.

i also think the single shot e-mine on the Bin-Tak is a bit ridiculuos... itsa dreadnought for crying out loud!! not a destroyer, it should have more than one!!

i still think the T'Rann is awful, although I am a lot happier with the T'Loth which sees frequent use now. The T'Rann is another ship that needs alot of improvement, at least give some anti-fighter defense trait.

I know this all sounds negative but I have been very pleased with the changes to the G'karith, G'Sten, T'Loth, G'Vrahn, Thentus and T'Rakk.

 

[Locutus9956]

Ok the Dag'Kar is very fragile yes but thats because its a frakking artillery piece it has SHOCKING firepower for a raid ship and if it was tougher it would be BROKEN BEYOND WORDS.

And the BinTak is a fantastic ship, the emine is just a bonus the main point of the ship is its other guns of which it has plenty of.

I agree that the G'Lan is probably a better choice than the G'Quan in most cases but I dont think the G'Quan is as bad as some poeple think still....

The Rongoth and Rotah I actually think are excellent ships as they stand and against certain opponents are well worth using. Vs high hull and/or interceptors your probably better off with KaToc/KaTans though.

In fact the only ship I have ANY issues with is G'Karith whihc I think was better at skirmish (but I dont have any problem with it losing its aft mines)

 

[inq101]

What Locutus said about the Bin'Taks mine is what I feel about ALL one shot e-mines. There a bonus, look on any damage they do as a gift.

The Bin'Tak (and any other large mine carrying ship) probably do have more than 1 e-mine, they just don't have the loading/firing facilities to reload during combat. Narn e-mines were developed from fighters packed full of high explosives so are going to be hure compared to other weapons ammunition.

The T'Rann does not need to be made better. It is a comedy ship put in the system because otherwise us Narn players would complain that they didn't have a carrier. Use it in campaigns so you have more fighter wings and send it home for refills. It even does a half decent job as a combat carrier due to high damage. I would like to see more T'Loth varients (see my conversion soon!)

The Dag'Kar probably should be tougher than it's stats show if it wasn't carrying several thousand megatonns worth of high explosives. One lucky hit would detonate its payload destroying the ship. I prefer the basic 'make it fragile' rules to extensive 'new crit table' special rules.

Tom