What happened to the Narn???????

[Tzarevitch]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with the way e-mines have been implemented in 2e. I just think that on the G'Quan they should not be that big a portion of its damage as compared to its lasers. The ship is seen causing its damage in almost every case with its mighty heavy lasers. If the e-mines were all that big a portion of the G'Quan's damage you'd think it would be using them more often in the show. The lasers are clearly the G'Quan's main weapon not the e-mines.

The G'quan should be doing more damage with its lasers. The argument that it has a lot of secondaries doesn't make sense. You rarely if ever see a G'Quan using it secondaries in the show either. It uses its LASERS. Also a ship with speed 6 and range 8 on its secondaries has little hope of ever getting them in range. Reduce the dice on the secondaries or the E-Mines and increase the laser by 1-2d. That would make the ship worthy of the role it plays in the show.

Other than that, I think the Narn are quite good. It is just galling that their iconic ship is rather weak for no particularly good reason.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

I don't really target big ships with my e-mines. I target patrol and skirmish level ships, especially when clustered in squadrons. Lower hull and lower crew/damage scores makes them excellent targets for this sort of thing. And most ships have slow loading e-mines. It's just the G'Quan, Bin'Tak, and Ka'Tan that don't. The Bin'Tak is already a good ship so the one shot E-Mine isn't an issue(use it to blow up initiative sinks, especially twofers). The Ka'Tan....is tricky. A 4AD E-Mine might be too much as that could be too good against a lot of fleets patrol and skirmish ships. The 2AD e-mine is too hit or miss on the other hand. Tzaravitch's idea of a 3AD pulsar mine sounds like a good one to me. Or hell, make it 4AD and slow loading if you're worried it'll be too good at fighter clearance. The G'Quan as a lot of people have mentioned doesn't need an e-mine upgrade, it needs a beam upgrade. 6AD for it's beam should bring it to an acceptable level.

Someone mentioned earlier about lowering the crew/damage on the Rongoth/Rothan a bit while giving them Hull 6. I like that idea. Just be sure that they have more crew/damage than the Maximus or Chronos(who also have interceptors unlike the Rongoth and Rothan).

I disagree with the people who see the T'Loth as good. To me a durable initiative sink is too expensive at raid. I'm honestly not sure what could fix it. The idea of "tough" really goes with the T'Loth but lets face it, in this game firepower tends to trump durability unless the ship in question has truely insane durability. Maybe boost the pulse cannons giving it a lot of traitless knife fighting range weapons? The T'Rakk does the durable initiative sink role better in my eyes and in all honesty I'd probably just use a Sho'Kar or a twofer over a T'Rakk in the initiative sink role. The T'Rann I can just ignore as I just see it as an example of why Narn shouldn't try to make carriers. :lol:

Overall though I'm happy with the new Narn fleet with the only thing that I absolutely want to see changed before 3rd Edition being the G'Quan. It's such an iconic ship that it needs to be made viable. The other stuff I mentioned I'd like to see changed but they aren't as important to me.

The T'Loth is a kinda expensive at 5 point raid but not at higher priority games. It is however a nasty bruiser for a force of smaller Narn ships even at 5 point raid, as it is very tough and is one of the cheaper Narn ships with a jump engine. It would be nice if there was a true command version though.

As far as cheaper initiative sinks in 5 point raid use a T'Rakk (also known as 1/2 a T'Loth).

Tzarevitch

 

[H]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with the way e-mines have been implemented in 2e. I just think that on the G'Quan they should not be that big a portion of its damage as compared to its lasers. The ship is seen causing its damage in almost every case with its mighty heavy lasers. If the e-mines were all that big a portion of the G'Quan's damage you'd think it would be using them more often in the show. The lasers are clearly the G'Quan's main weapon not the e-mines.

The G'quan should be doing more damage with its lasers. The argument that it has a lot of secondaries doesn't make sense. You rarely if ever see a G'Quan using it secondaries in the show either. It uses its LASERS. Also a ship with speed 6 and range 8 on its secondaries has little hope of ever getting them in range. Reduce the dice on the secondaries or the E-Mines and increase the laser by 1-2d. That would make the ship worthy of the role it plays in the show.

Other than that, I think the Narn are quite good. It is just galling that their iconic ship is rather weak for no particularly good reason.

Tzarevitch

But then what we "see" on many ships doesn't necesarily translate. G'Quans had 2 beams, forward arc, the Omega has 2 beams too I "think", the WS is boresight in the show and so on, alas they are all slaves to the Game.

 

[thehod]

I dont know what the Narn are arguing about the lack of defenses. Atleast you do have a ship with an interceptor (G'Vran). A Ship with Stealth (Sho'Kar), and The ability to negate 3 of the major defenses that 3 different fleets rely on (stealth, interceptors, dodge).

Dilgar ONLY have just an anti-fighter rating here and there but no dodge, no stealth, no interceptors and what the Dilgar do, Narn do better.

 

[dag'karlove]

Well Im not whining. Im telling others to get over it and stop whining.as i said everyone has thier cheese.Lear to use it to your advantage.

 

[Hans Olo]

Dilgar ONLY have just an anti-fighter rating here and there but no dodge, no stealth, no interceptors and what the Dilgar do, Narn do better.

Dilgar do more damage, are tougher (at least at Patrol Skirmish and Raid)
Have longer range secondarys and do Triple damage!

 

[Triggy]

The Dilgar tend to be either:
tougher and have more range;
or do more damage and have more speed.

Either way, Narn can still put up a very good fight vs Dilgar fleets.

 

[katadder]

amusing thing is Narn players in 1e would have been happy to have 1Ad added to their beam. now they got it but the omega got more they are all complaining again.
g'quan v omega : g'quan has more damage, an e-mine and far more secondaries (which contrary to what some people think it is actually very easy to get into range). the omega has more beam, more fighters and interceptors. overall a fight between these two is very close.

 

[Frohike]

I am interested to hear what would fix the G'Quan, why not table some stats?

It would also be interesting to hear what opponents are being fought, along with some info on games played - again I am currious to see how you arrived at this opinion.

 

[inq101]

I think people may be using the G'Quan wrong. It's drawbacks (lumbering, low speed, short range secondaries) make it an excellently big ship killer.

It has short range so needs to get close, but it's low maneuverability makes this tough against more agile (smaller) ships.
So target big ships.
They tend to be slower, often have lumbering and rarely more than 1 turn. You can normally predict where it will be in 3 turns, let alone next turn. In a knife fight I'd back a G'Quan against almost every other ship out there.

I agree it is slightly weaker than many other battle PL ships as a general purpose ship, so play to your strength, not the enemies.

Tom

 

[thehod]

I personally believe that Narn are a top tier fleet with a counter to most of the trick tactics of other fleets.

Massive Fighters are no worries with Emines (Gkarith)
Dodges are also negated by Emines
Stealth Negated by Emines and add to the +1 to break stealth
Interceptors are useless against Emines and beams
Swarm fleets cant be close or lose to Emines.
Heavy Armor fleets are useless against beams
Breaching Pod fleets useless against the high troop and crew ratings

There is no easy way to beat a Narn fleet. All im saying is that Narn are hard to beat but not unbeatable.

 

[MustEatBrains]

We´ve had a big 3 player game today, 6 War, Narn vs. Brakiri vs. Crusade EA. We had a good mix of different ships, especially with the Narn, to take a close look at how they really handle now.

In short: There wasn´t one individual Narn ship that any one of us would have considered underpowered, and as a whole fleet they just rock - as our Narn player pointed out, the fleet is great at long range (e-mines, Ion torpedos, Lasers...) and at short range (Ion Cannons...) it´s just the medium range at which they aren´t that good. So, after unleashing a devastating amount of firepower at long range (including the new e-mines), they have more than enough damage + crew to cross the medium distance, and then do some serious butt-kicking with your secondaries.

I really, really, can´t see anything wrong with it the Narn in 2nd ed, even after all the arguments in this thread. The list works, and it works well.

 

[dag'karlove]

I agree. Im an avid narn player and i dont get what all teh other narn players are so upset about. Emines Now AP and TD. That rocks. Yeah The Gquan took a few less dice. Ohh well. What i cant stand is the whiners who arent narn who complain were too strong case we have a weapon that negates thier advantages better than it did before. Get over it.

 

[H]

amusing thing is Narn players in 1e would have been happy to have 1Ad added to their beam. now they got it but the omega got more they are all complaining again.
g'quan v omega : g'quan has more damage, an e-mine and far more secondaries (which contrary to what some people think it is actually very easy to get into range). the omega has more beam, more fighters and interceptors. overall a fight between these two is very close.

the g'quan should also have a forward beam... ;-)

 

[MustEatBrains]

I am interested to hear what would fix the G'Quan, why not table some stats?

´

Why fix what ain´t broken?

 

[Tzarevitch]

I am interested to hear what would fix the G'Quan, why not table some stats?

´

Why fix what ain´t broken?

It isn't broken. It IS however weak. A G'Quan is supposed to take on other races' heavy ships. It is not supposed to chase down skirmish and patrol level ships or swat fighters, so precsely why was it made so dependent on a weapon system that does just that is beyond me. A 1-shot e-mine is scary against patrol or skirmish ships. It can burise some raid level ships. It is a mere scratch against anything bigger.

The laser is the ship killer on the G'Quan. The laser is what you see it firing all the time in the show. While FA laser would be nice, I can live with boresight as long as it hits harder.

When G'Kar said that only the G'Toc had the firepower to help Sheridan against the Shadows the G'Toc arrived and fired its LASERS, not its e-mines. The G'Quan needs less e-mine, more laser. 1 Single shot e-mine is very little punch against ships in the same class as a G'Quan.

Tzarevitch

 

[Believer in G'Lan]

I think that while it may have been true that the narn fleet in 1e were tougher than pretty much anything else, in 2e they seem to me to be consistently average/little above average with a few particularly tough ships as exceptions, where most of the other fleets vary more between being tough and downright fragile (within a given fleet that is)

Now at the lower PL's the narn ships have mostly solid speed/manouverability and weapons teamed up with the consistent toughness, which leaves them pretty solid overall and with no major issues to my eyes.

At battle though, seems to be a point where with the reduced numbers of ships, most of the other races also make it close towards being consistently average in toughness, which leaves the narn's needing to stand out somewhere and quite frankly the G'Quan fails at that, which leaves it looking sub-standard.

Going up to war the Bin'Tak seems very solid and the G'Vrahn great and moving up to armageddon the Ka'Bintak goes back to being pretty much tougher than anything else, so again no real problems.

So all I'd really complain about is the iconic G'Quan. I think looking at it that it can't quite decide what it is, its toughness is again pretty average for a battle PL ship, while its speed and manouverability is below average, if it was a long range ship that would be expected I think, but its long range firepower is only really up to snuff on the one turn when it has the e-mines available. It does have more secondary weapons than most, but it also has less range and less traits on them.

The G'lan variant drops the e-mine launcher and gets its beam firepower nearer to where it wants to be for long range, but at the same time loses range down to medium, I think I'd rate it higher than G'Quan but maybe not by much.

In both cases it would be a tough choice as to wether you would take two Var'Nic instead, which boast slightly improved overall toughness with more long/medium range firepower and great speed/manouverability.

Lastly the G'Tal variant drops the mines, a little speed in order to gain a command boost and a little toughness, it seems solid but unspectacular as a battle command ship, though I suspect you'd be sorely tempted to take a G'Vrahn instead at battle and certainly would at war and not sure you'd take a battle PL ship for +1 command at raid unless it was a particularly large game, which maybe leaves it with a very small niche.

I think probably all three would push up from being entirely unspectacular to being choices you'd be happy with if they had a bit better main beam.

 

[Ripple]

G'Quan

What would make it better,

Cut the secondaries in half but up the range by two inches.
Drop the e-mine a die or two
Up the laser to the 6 AD bore that the Omega has.

Reasons - canon visuals and fluff (maybe game role as a long range cruiser killer)...

In the one episode we see the e-mines there are a number of G'Quans (7?) but we only see two emines (I think, been a while). Maybe these things are a refit like the Centauri mass drivers, we certainly see more G'Quans without them that with them.

In another episode we see the G'Quan firing secondaries at some fighters (small ship?). The number of pulses doesn't seem overwhelming.

In every other case we see primarily two giant beams. Clearly the reason for the ships existance is the big central beams.

Why does this ship out pulse the EA, who we see dropping huge number of pulse? The Centauri, who have so much pulse they can fire at both B5 and the Narn effectively?

We just went the wrong way with the G'Quan fluff wise. Now that we've fixed the Centauri to make them look a bit like the show, maybe we can get the other goofs fixed, like say the Drazi Darkhawk, which should be a warbird variant (or given we see so many, maybe that's just the warbird).

The show doesn't show that many ships, it just seems important that those ships be done right, the rest we're free to get as wrong as we like.

Ripple

 

[Tolwyn]

I just had a game vs the new G'Quan with an Omega as part of my fleet. I have to say that the Mines could hurt at a good hit at small low hull ships. They are less effective against high hull ships.

The G'Quan should definitly have some more AD on it's beam weapons as the secondaries have a hard time hitting anything with hull 5 and 6. (In the same turn I could argue just to give the Omega more AD Pulse :wink

 

[Hans Olo]

G'Quan

What would make it better,

Cut the secondaries in half but up the range by two inches.
Drop the e-mine a die or two
Up the laser to the 6 AD bore that the Omega has.

Reasons - canon visuals and fluff (maybe game role as a long range cruiser killer)...

In the one episode we see the e-mines there are a number of G'Quans (7?) but we only see two emines (I think, been a while). Maybe these things are a refit like the Centauri mass drivers, we certainly see more G'Quans without them that with them.

In another episode we see the G'Quan firing secondaries at some fighters (small ship?). The number of pulses doesn't seem overwhelming.

In every other case we see primarily two giant beams. Clearly the reason for the ships existance is the big central beams.

Why does this ship out pulse the EA, who we see dropping huge number of pulse? The Centauri, who have so much pulse they can fire at both B5 and the Narn effectively?

We just went the wrong way with the G'Quan fluff wise. Now that we've fixed the Centauri to make them look a bit like the show, maybe we can get the other goofs fixed, like say the Drazi Darkhawk, which should be a warbird variant (or given we see so many, maybe that's just the warbird).

The show doesn't show that many ships, it just seems important that those ships be done right, the rest we're free to get as wrong as we like.

Ripple

That sounds really good I'm absolutely supporting this.