N
noobdelux
Guest
you get 5? variants of the same model.. thats nice thoug : P
What happened to the Narn???????
- Thread starter patton4014
- Start date
My Narna fleet plays much tougher under 2e than it did before. The Varnic is now totally right for its slot. The 2 for 1 patrol boats with torpedos make a nice init sink, helping to offset all those bore site weapons. ANd the Dag-kar, with only one launcher but triple dammage slow loading can be really nasty early on.
One big change in 2e is the fact that you can do boarding actions when a target ship is moving half speed. That makes ships like the Rogan much more interesting as follow-on boarding assault ships. Tricky to pull off, but way fun when it works.
The biggest issue is the G'Quann. There is really no good tractical reason to take it, which is a shame for the race's signature ship. Either you take two Var'Nics, or a G'Vran.
Speaking of the G'Vran, it may be the best war level battlecruiser out there. I don't see any reason to ever take a Bin Tak.
One big change in 2e is the fact that you can do boarding actions when a target ship is moving half speed. That makes ships like the Rogan much more interesting as follow-on boarding assault ships. Tricky to pull off, but way fun when it works.
The biggest issue is the G'Quann. There is really no good tractical reason to take it, which is a shame for the race's signature ship. Either you take two Var'Nics, or a G'Vran.
Speaking of the G'Vran, it may be the best war level battlecruiser out there. I don't see any reason to ever take a Bin Tak.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The Bin'tak is probably better against swarms of small ships, because of its massed secondary guns. But generaly the G'Vrahn is a very, very good war-level ship.
MustEatBrains
Mongoose
I really don´t understand the question, Í mean sure the Narns have changed thow they are being played (not as much as other fleets, especially the Centauri), but while they are different to 1st ed, they still kick some serious butt in 2nd ed!
So, what happened to the Narn?
They found new ways to make their opponents hurt!
So, what happened to the Narn?
They found new ways to make their opponents hurt!
the narn have some of the toughest ships available plus TD e-mines.
if you tihnk the dag'kar is no good you should have seen a playtested version with only a couple more dice - beat a 5 WS fleet with one dag'kar lost, beat a 5 teshlan fleet with only 2 dag'kars lost.
on t'loths, has anyone tried using these? they have war level damage, all round firepower and a DD weapon on the front. my opponents hate them as they cannot kill them and i love them. my usual fleet is 2 t'loths, 2 var'nics, 1 dag'kar. the t'loths also make great init sinks cos yeah someone can point a beam at them, but who cares
and you will find your opponent scared to use all stop when facing these too as they will end up with 12 units of rampaging narn bat squads running through their ship.
if you tihnk the dag'kar is no good you should have seen a playtested version with only a couple more dice - beat a 5 WS fleet with one dag'kar lost, beat a 5 teshlan fleet with only 2 dag'kars lost.
on t'loths, has anyone tried using these? they have war level damage, all round firepower and a DD weapon on the front. my opponents hate them as they cannot kill them and i love them. my usual fleet is 2 t'loths, 2 var'nics, 1 dag'kar. the t'loths also make great init sinks cos yeah someone can point a beam at them, but who cares
and you will find your opponent scared to use all stop when facing these too as they will end up with 12 units of rampaging narn bat squads running through their ship.
Celisasu
Mongoose
I've noticed in low priority games my Narn tactics change only slightly. Since I favor the Thentus due to having 4 beam dice(even if two have no traits other than beam) over the Ka'Tan this means my fleet tends to be slightly more maneuverable than before although I have to get in a bit closer. The Ka'Toc plays as before as well. I'm not sure how useful the Ka'Tan is. Probably not much in a high priority engagement but it might have value in a patrol level engagement where a good e-mine hit can leave two patrol vessels almost dead at good range. On the other hand maybe it'd be a good fighter clearance ship at higher engagements. 2AD should be plenty for wiping out groups of fighters and then you close in and use those two beam dice against whatever is the best looking target letting you save your bigger e-mines for better stuff.
The real change is at higher priorities. Instead of a fleet of sluggers I've noticed my fleet has shifted to fast maneuverable ships with nasty forward guns centered around the G'Vrahn and Var'Nic(which reminds me I need to get a G'Vrahn model eventually instead of proxying a G'Quan for it). Trying to figure out the right balance of support vessels for this fleet. Primarily I'm experimenting with the Dag'Kar(long range fire support, been very hit or miss in this role), G'Karith(Fighter Clearance....not sure how effective it is, feels it dies a bit fast at the levels I've tried it at and too many dilutes the effect of the heavy hitters, the loss of that rear launcher hurts actually. I kind of prefered it at 4AD each forward and back as opposed to 8AD forward), the Thentus(4AD of beams on a skirmish ship makes it quite a threat) and of course our scout(I hate it's low stealth sometimes, oh well, we're Narn. We adapt).
I refuse to use the Sho'kos or Sho'kov out of my dislike of twofers.
The real change is at higher priorities. Instead of a fleet of sluggers I've noticed my fleet has shifted to fast maneuverable ships with nasty forward guns centered around the G'Vrahn and Var'Nic(which reminds me I need to get a G'Vrahn model eventually instead of proxying a G'Quan for it). Trying to figure out the right balance of support vessels for this fleet. Primarily I'm experimenting with the Dag'Kar(long range fire support, been very hit or miss in this role), G'Karith(Fighter Clearance....not sure how effective it is, feels it dies a bit fast at the levels I've tried it at and too many dilutes the effect of the heavy hitters, the loss of that rear launcher hurts actually. I kind of prefered it at 4AD each forward and back as opposed to 8AD forward), the Thentus(4AD of beams on a skirmish ship makes it quite a threat) and of course our scout(I hate it's low stealth sometimes, oh well, we're Narn. We adapt).
I refuse to use the Sho'kos or Sho'kov out of my dislike of twofers.
Tzarevitch
Mongoose
I disagree with the original post. Honestly, I thought the Narn fleet is significantly improved with a couple of exceptions. Here is my opinion of the current fleet roster.
The Good:
G'Vrahn - I can't say enough about how good a ship this is. Teamed with the Var'Nic and Thentus it is spectacular.
T'Loth - FA on the plasmas is a huge improvement and the changes to beam rules make it harder to beat through its vast reserve of hp. It is a durable initiative sink. It isn't the heaviest-hitting raid level ship but it will be in the fight to the end and FA arc with decent range means you can't ignore it either.
Thentus - Good ship as always. No significant changes. The Thentus always was a good ship but the old Ka'Tan was so overpowered that no one used it.
Ka'Toc - Same as above. The de-powering of the Ka'Tan returned the Ka'Toc to its rightful place in the sun.
T'Rakk - My god this thing has a lot of hp at skirmish. It is half of a T'Loth, literally. It is pretty quick for a Narn and actually can turn too. I am not sure how skirmish ships kill one of these. Ranged firepower seems kinda weak though but you can't have everything.
Var'Nic - This ship really rocks at raid level. It is quick AND agile AND has good firepower and good range. Keep fighters away from it though.
Dak'Kar - Happy times again. If only the thing had more launchers but with fewer dice per launcher to add flexibility. A couple of these in your fleet will destroy light ships quickly and hurt medium ships. They have decent hit points but low hull and are slow as molasses. Beams are no longer the bane of their existance
The Bad (Or not much improved)
G'Quan - Marginal improvement if at all. I would've increased the beam dice by 1-2d, especially since the secondaries are so short ranged and it is boresight. 1 launcher hurts a lot too. I would also have preferred 2x3d launchers. At least that adds flexibility. 6d of one-shot e-mine is not nearly enough. It needs more laser, decent secondaries (more range) or more e-mine. (Possibly 2x 6d launchers with a special rule that it can't fire both in the same turn.)
G'Quonth - Just get rid of this thing already. It doesn't need to exist. War level is crowded with good stuff for the Narn and I can't say I'd ever use one of these over a G'Vrahn or a Bin'Tak. They have a lot of firepower but have the bad combo of fragile AND slow at War level which will be their downfall every time. Enemies who shy away from pouring damage immediately into a Bin'Tak will rejoyce and unload on this thing.
G'Karith - I agree with Celisasu. I thought it was better with 4AD bow and aft. This gave it better fighter clearance. Truthfully I would have added 2d of side pulsar mines too. 8AD front is not nearly as useful. It isn't that hard for faster fighters to stay out of the cone.
Gorith - What is the point of this thing other than to show the evolution of the Narn fighter programme? It's no Kotha but it sure isn't any good either. It can't dogfight well, it is no faster than a frazi and it is a poor anti-shipping fighter. It is only slightly better than the Frazi at the stuff the frazi is supposed to be lousy at and it has NO real good points. If they were at least cheaper than Frazis that would be something but they cost the same too.
The Ugly
Ka'Tan - Not sure how 1x2d e-mine is supposed to be useful. They should've mounted a small pulsar mine (3d) on this thing instead. That would have made it a decent fighter-clearance unit. It is listed as an escort (without the trait) but I am not sure how it actually supposed to escort anything. Multiple Ka'Tans are useful against really BIG fighter formations (Gaim and EA mainly) though because they can create a large firestorm by launching all mines at once.
Rothan/Rongoth - I never liked these ships. At least they are cheaper now but they are still not good in my opinion. They have decent firepower for skirmish but a Ka'Toc or a Thentus will almost always be a better choice. At least they aren't boresighted.
Wishes for 2e additions/fixes to the Narn:
Please for the love of all that is holy improve the G'Quan. You see the ship using its lasers in the show, not it's e-mines. I would like to see potent lasers, even if it means a reduction in E-mine damage.
Please do something with the Gorith. Boost its speed at least to 12 or make it cheaper to buy as independent wings. At least that gives some reason to use it. Also, when is the Narn Tarza torpedo fighter going to make an appearance? At at least it would give more options other than Frazi, Frazi and more Frazi. EA got all the old starfury variants back, how about the Narn getting the Tarza back.
Tzarevitch
The Good:
G'Vrahn - I can't say enough about how good a ship this is. Teamed with the Var'Nic and Thentus it is spectacular.
T'Loth - FA on the plasmas is a huge improvement and the changes to beam rules make it harder to beat through its vast reserve of hp. It is a durable initiative sink. It isn't the heaviest-hitting raid level ship but it will be in the fight to the end and FA arc with decent range means you can't ignore it either.
Thentus - Good ship as always. No significant changes. The Thentus always was a good ship but the old Ka'Tan was so overpowered that no one used it.
Ka'Toc - Same as above. The de-powering of the Ka'Tan returned the Ka'Toc to its rightful place in the sun.
T'Rakk - My god this thing has a lot of hp at skirmish. It is half of a T'Loth, literally. It is pretty quick for a Narn and actually can turn too. I am not sure how skirmish ships kill one of these. Ranged firepower seems kinda weak though but you can't have everything.
Var'Nic - This ship really rocks at raid level. It is quick AND agile AND has good firepower and good range. Keep fighters away from it though.
Dak'Kar - Happy times again. If only the thing had more launchers but with fewer dice per launcher to add flexibility. A couple of these in your fleet will destroy light ships quickly and hurt medium ships. They have decent hit points but low hull and are slow as molasses. Beams are no longer the bane of their existance
The Bad (Or not much improved)
G'Quan - Marginal improvement if at all. I would've increased the beam dice by 1-2d, especially since the secondaries are so short ranged and it is boresight. 1 launcher hurts a lot too. I would also have preferred 2x3d launchers. At least that adds flexibility. 6d of one-shot e-mine is not nearly enough. It needs more laser, decent secondaries (more range) or more e-mine. (Possibly 2x 6d launchers with a special rule that it can't fire both in the same turn.)
G'Quonth - Just get rid of this thing already. It doesn't need to exist. War level is crowded with good stuff for the Narn and I can't say I'd ever use one of these over a G'Vrahn or a Bin'Tak. They have a lot of firepower but have the bad combo of fragile AND slow at War level which will be their downfall every time. Enemies who shy away from pouring damage immediately into a Bin'Tak will rejoyce and unload on this thing.
G'Karith - I agree with Celisasu. I thought it was better with 4AD bow and aft. This gave it better fighter clearance. Truthfully I would have added 2d of side pulsar mines too. 8AD front is not nearly as useful. It isn't that hard for faster fighters to stay out of the cone.
Gorith - What is the point of this thing other than to show the evolution of the Narn fighter programme? It's no Kotha but it sure isn't any good either. It can't dogfight well, it is no faster than a frazi and it is a poor anti-shipping fighter. It is only slightly better than the Frazi at the stuff the frazi is supposed to be lousy at and it has NO real good points. If they were at least cheaper than Frazis that would be something but they cost the same too.
The Ugly
Ka'Tan - Not sure how 1x2d e-mine is supposed to be useful. They should've mounted a small pulsar mine (3d) on this thing instead. That would have made it a decent fighter-clearance unit. It is listed as an escort (without the trait) but I am not sure how it actually supposed to escort anything. Multiple Ka'Tans are useful against really BIG fighter formations (Gaim and EA mainly) though because they can create a large firestorm by launching all mines at once.
Rothan/Rongoth - I never liked these ships. At least they are cheaper now but they are still not good in my opinion. They have decent firepower for skirmish but a Ka'Toc or a Thentus will almost always be a better choice. At least they aren't boresighted.
Wishes for 2e additions/fixes to the Narn:
Please for the love of all that is holy improve the G'Quan. You see the ship using its lasers in the show, not it's e-mines. I would like to see potent lasers, even if it means a reduction in E-mine damage.
Please do something with the Gorith. Boost its speed at least to 12 or make it cheaper to buy as independent wings. At least that gives some reason to use it. Also, when is the Narn Tarza torpedo fighter going to make an appearance? At at least it would give more options other than Frazi, Frazi and more Frazi. EA got all the old starfury variants back, how about the Narn getting the Tarza back.
Tzarevitch
MustEatBrains
Mongoose
Tzarevitch said:
Amen to that! The G´Quan uses it´s lasers for just about everything in the show, including killing a Shadow ship and bombarding Centauri Prime. And it´s so damn cool looking (even though the miniature doesn´t quite represent the show) that it deserves to be more than just "not bad". Maybe a variant, a Crusade era version or something like that. Maybe in a supplement.
patton4014
Mongoose
Well,
This is exactly the type of discussion that I hoped to have. One reason I love Mongoose games and Mongoose gamers is the ability to discuss without flaming and railing at the wind. Nice pointed comments and proper criticism.
The only comment that I do take a bit of umbrage with is the one about having to change tactics. I don’t think that there is another fleet in this game that has had to change it tactics as much as the Narn. No one else to my knowledge has had their main weapon adjusted again and again as with the emine trait. Yes the Centauri have a big make over for 2e. But it seems to me that every supplement has seen a change to the emine.
While I readily admit I made a few mistakes in my original quote (I think I was looking at the wrong G’Quan in my moment of rant on torps), I still stick by my original statement.
I think the discussion has shown that most people think that many of the Narn ships have broken or questionalble stats. One ship or the other come up is most of the longer responses.
Overwhelming people think the GQ is broken. I really think it needs some punch added for a Battle level ship. I think this is a shame where it currently is at because the class has such a prominent place in B5 episodes and is just a cool ship to begin with (BTW, I do remember seeing the shadow vessels helping the one that was hit by the emine off the battlefield in that episode).
Many of you think that there is an issue with the Dag'Kar. Either add dice or another launcher.
I do really like the Var’nic and the G’Vrahn, which I think pound for pound, are now the best ships in the Narn fleet. These were the best of the new ships and the best move by the Mongoose design team (Thank You!!!!).
However, I still disagree with the emine issue. So we get AP and Triple Damage. So what big deal, they still cannot crit other ships. Triple damage is great when a ship is 12-15 damage/crew. Still Ok when you get to 20/30. But with just one shot this is an all or nothing now. Assuming you hit OK you can take of 8 or 10 pts (average) of a enemy. And if not and you miss? Well you are in deep #@$@#!. You now do not have another chance. And the majority of your other weapons are not coming into range any time soon!
This was something that I used to love about the Narn. With multiple launchers and slow loading you could take a risk and blow them all at once and hope they did some big damage before the other player hit the gas and closed to shooting range. Or you alternate fire to keep up a continuous barrage and hope for a crit. That ability to crit is vital. It is the wild card in the game. And that lack now really limits the Narn eships.
Which would you rather have 4 dice of +1 triple damage or 4 dice of double damage or even single damage that give you the ability to crit a ship into the loss of weapons or speed or crew or the ship itself? Give me the crit ability any day of the week. And this lack of critical hit ability hampers all of the Narn Emine ships. The example of a 4-1 crit ratio that happened in the Minbari game is something I see and hear about more that most.
When you combine all of this with a lack of defensive systems and medium range weapons, it takes a very skilled player to play the Narn. The lack of systems or traits to cut down the number of hits or avoiding them altogether is a big hurt to the Narn.
However, if that is a hallmark of the race, I am fine with it. Keep it. But give the Narn ships the damage and crew to really hold out against an attack that we have been told is part of the Narn race. Maybe give them a non special action trait that emphasizes how tough their hulls are. Or give them better weapons suite so that they can stand up to ships a level higher. Something.
And I guess in the end that is what I would like to see. Keep the weapons the way they are except the emine (give me back multiple launchers or slow loading on the one shots) and make the ships slightly tougher to suit the theme of the race.
This is exactly the type of discussion that I hoped to have. One reason I love Mongoose games and Mongoose gamers is the ability to discuss without flaming and railing at the wind. Nice pointed comments and proper criticism.
The only comment that I do take a bit of umbrage with is the one about having to change tactics. I don’t think that there is another fleet in this game that has had to change it tactics as much as the Narn. No one else to my knowledge has had their main weapon adjusted again and again as with the emine trait. Yes the Centauri have a big make over for 2e. But it seems to me that every supplement has seen a change to the emine.
While I readily admit I made a few mistakes in my original quote (I think I was looking at the wrong G’Quan in my moment of rant on torps), I still stick by my original statement.
I think the discussion has shown that most people think that many of the Narn ships have broken or questionalble stats. One ship or the other come up is most of the longer responses.
Overwhelming people think the GQ is broken. I really think it needs some punch added for a Battle level ship. I think this is a shame where it currently is at because the class has such a prominent place in B5 episodes and is just a cool ship to begin with (BTW, I do remember seeing the shadow vessels helping the one that was hit by the emine off the battlefield in that episode).
Many of you think that there is an issue with the Dag'Kar. Either add dice or another launcher.
I do really like the Var’nic and the G’Vrahn, which I think pound for pound, are now the best ships in the Narn fleet. These were the best of the new ships and the best move by the Mongoose design team (Thank You!!!!).
However, I still disagree with the emine issue. So we get AP and Triple Damage. So what big deal, they still cannot crit other ships. Triple damage is great when a ship is 12-15 damage/crew. Still Ok when you get to 20/30. But with just one shot this is an all or nothing now. Assuming you hit OK you can take of 8 or 10 pts (average) of a enemy. And if not and you miss? Well you are in deep #@$@#!. You now do not have another chance. And the majority of your other weapons are not coming into range any time soon!
This was something that I used to love about the Narn. With multiple launchers and slow loading you could take a risk and blow them all at once and hope they did some big damage before the other player hit the gas and closed to shooting range. Or you alternate fire to keep up a continuous barrage and hope for a crit. That ability to crit is vital. It is the wild card in the game. And that lack now really limits the Narn eships.
Which would you rather have 4 dice of +1 triple damage or 4 dice of double damage or even single damage that give you the ability to crit a ship into the loss of weapons or speed or crew or the ship itself? Give me the crit ability any day of the week. And this lack of critical hit ability hampers all of the Narn Emine ships. The example of a 4-1 crit ratio that happened in the Minbari game is something I see and hear about more that most.
When you combine all of this with a lack of defensive systems and medium range weapons, it takes a very skilled player to play the Narn. The lack of systems or traits to cut down the number of hits or avoiding them altogether is a big hurt to the Narn.
However, if that is a hallmark of the race, I am fine with it. Keep it. But give the Narn ships the damage and crew to really hold out against an attack that we have been told is part of the Narn race. Maybe give them a non special action trait that emphasizes how tough their hulls are. Or give them better weapons suite so that they can stand up to ships a level higher. Something.
And I guess in the end that is what I would like to see. Keep the weapons the way they are except the emine (give me back multiple launchers or slow loading on the one shots) and make the ships slightly tougher to suit the theme of the race.
Celisasu
Mongoose
I don't really target big ships with my e-mines. I target patrol and skirmish level ships, especially when clustered in squadrons. Lower hull and lower crew/damage scores makes them excellent targets for this sort of thing. And most ships have slow loading e-mines. It's just the G'Quan, Bin'Tak, and Ka'Tan that don't. The Bin'Tak is already a good ship so the one shot E-Mine isn't an issue(use it to blow up initiative sinks, especially twofers). The Ka'Tan....is tricky. A 4AD E-Mine might be too much as that could be too good against a lot of fleets patrol and skirmish ships. The 2AD e-mine is too hit or miss on the other hand. Tzaravitch's idea of a 3AD pulsar mine sounds like a good one to me. Or hell, make it 4AD and slow loading if you're worried it'll be too good at fighter clearance. The G'Quan as a lot of people have mentioned doesn't need an e-mine upgrade, it needs a beam upgrade. 6AD for it's beam should bring it to an acceptable level.
Someone mentioned earlier about lowering the crew/damage on the Rongoth/Rothan a bit while giving them Hull 6. I like that idea. Just be sure that they have more crew/damage than the Maximus or Chronos(who also have interceptors unlike the Rongoth and Rothan).
I disagree with the people who see the T'Loth as good. To me a durable initiative sink is too expensive at raid. I'm honestly not sure what could fix it. The idea of "tough" really goes with the T'Loth but lets face it, in this game firepower tends to trump durability unless the ship in question has truely insane durability. Maybe boost the pulse cannons giving it a lot of traitless knife fighting range weapons? The T'Rakk does the durable initiative sink role better in my eyes and in all honesty I'd probably just use a Sho'Kar or a twofer over a T'Rakk in the initiative sink role. The T'Rann I can just ignore as I just see it as an example of why Narn shouldn't try to make carriers. :lol:
Overall though I'm happy with the new Narn fleet with the only thing that I absolutely want to see changed before 3rd Edition being the G'Quan. It's such an iconic ship that it needs to be made viable. The other stuff I mentioned I'd like to see changed but they aren't as important to me.
Someone mentioned earlier about lowering the crew/damage on the Rongoth/Rothan a bit while giving them Hull 6. I like that idea. Just be sure that they have more crew/damage than the Maximus or Chronos(who also have interceptors unlike the Rongoth and Rothan).
I disagree with the people who see the T'Loth as good. To me a durable initiative sink is too expensive at raid. I'm honestly not sure what could fix it. The idea of "tough" really goes with the T'Loth but lets face it, in this game firepower tends to trump durability unless the ship in question has truely insane durability. Maybe boost the pulse cannons giving it a lot of traitless knife fighting range weapons? The T'Rakk does the durable initiative sink role better in my eyes and in all honesty I'd probably just use a Sho'Kar or a twofer over a T'Rakk in the initiative sink role. The T'Rann I can just ignore as I just see it as an example of why Narn shouldn't try to make carriers. :lol:
Overall though I'm happy with the new Narn fleet with the only thing that I absolutely want to see changed before 3rd Edition being the G'Quan. It's such an iconic ship that it needs to be made viable. The other stuff I mentioned I'd like to see changed but they aren't as important to me.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Once again, the T'Loth is an assault cruiser, not a line warship. It's a specialist unit, use it for its specialist purpose and you'll see it's a first-class unit. Force it to do another ship's job and you'll see it suck really big rocks.
Compare it to the Secundus, the Centauri's only assault ship. The T'Loth has less weapons, but actually has more troops aboard and the same shuttles rating. It's also half the price, so you can stick two T'Loths in a planetary assault for every one Secundus the Centauri could field. Two T'Loths can match the Secundus' firepower reasonably well and bring a lot more troops to any battle.
Stop forcing the square peg into the round hole and using an assault ship as a line ship. It's not meant for it.
Compare it to the Secundus, the Centauri's only assault ship. The T'Loth has less weapons, but actually has more troops aboard and the same shuttles rating. It's also half the price, so you can stick two T'Loths in a planetary assault for every one Secundus the Centauri could field. Two T'Loths can match the Secundus' firepower reasonably well and bring a lot more troops to any battle.
Stop forcing the square peg into the round hole and using an assault ship as a line ship. It's not meant for it.
Clanger
Mongoose
I do not know what the Pouchlings are moaning about. The Narn ships can soak up a lot of damage, this does make a difference. Take the Sho'Kov 2 for 1 patrol point and they soak a lot of damage for its class.
Each fleet has it plus and minus points. The Narn are close up brawlers and take the punishment. They take the licks and when they get to you give you a good whack. I feel that they do have some very good ships. Like anything else it is how you play them.
Each fleet has it plus and minus points. The Narn are close up brawlers and take the punishment. They take the licks and when they get to you give you a good whack. I feel that they do have some very good ships. Like anything else it is how you play them.
Narn e-mines are special purpose weapons, especially now most are one shot. Anyone who is use one to bomb a loan battle PL or higher ship is wasting them unless there are no other targets. Prime targets are carriers who have just launched fighter swarms and clusters of low PL ships. the only e-mines you should be using for fighter clearance is the G'Kariths.
The e-mines should also be backed up with other weapons. Narn fleets have good long ranged firepower in every PL. 1 e-mine probably won't kill the average skirmish ship, but one backed up by 2AD, 20" DD beam could.
The e-mines should also be backed up with other weapons. Narn fleets have good long ranged firepower in every PL. 1 e-mine probably won't kill the average skirmish ship, but one backed up by 2AD, 20" DD beam could.
Exactly what I was going to say.inq101 said:
As playtesters we played with e-mines a lot and found that once we got the tactics right, not only did they frag smaller capital ships well but they forced the enemy to deploy in a much more spread out fashion (thus buying you time).
E-mines are at their absolute best against interceptors, shields (no attack roll means the no crits thing is meaningless), dodge and stealth. This covers about half of the ships you will ever face. So long as you aim at hull 4/5 ships (hitting at least two of them) you should be getting a decent amount of bang for your buck either way. Often it was worth waiting for a turn or two to fire them as this forced the enemy to remain spread, even as they closed in with your position. They are one of the more potent weapons in the game but require a lot more thought now when using them.
MustEatBrains
Mongoose
Besides, there are enough ships with pulsar mines, which work just like in 1st ed, and a few ships have emines as slow loading - so I see no big change in tactics in using them, apart from shifting the focus from fighter swarms (which they can still blast to pieces) to medium sized ships...
to answer a couple of points - dag'kar couldnt have multiple tubes as this made it far too good against the WS fleet (3 WSs dead 1st turn in fact with this option when tested, as is they still a hard fight).
ka'tans are light a mini g'quan they have the same relationship to the ka'toc as the g'quan has to the g'lan. this fits quite well i think. plus throw out 10 2AD e-mines and against a WS fleet thats enough to kill a WS or cripple 2 on average in the 1st turn.
as for wanting crits - you already ignore every defensive device apart from shields, which you cant crit anyway so e-mines are good for taking down. crits would be too much.
I dont see many narn players having problems. ok the g'quan is low end of the scale for battle until you get close then it has more secondaries than any other battle level vessel.
ka'tans are light a mini g'quan they have the same relationship to the ka'toc as the g'quan has to the g'lan. this fits quite well i think. plus throw out 10 2AD e-mines and against a WS fleet thats enough to kill a WS or cripple 2 on average in the 1st turn.
as for wanting crits - you already ignore every defensive device apart from shields, which you cant crit anyway so e-mines are good for taking down. crits would be too much.
I dont see many narn players having problems. ok the g'quan is low end of the scale for battle until you get close then it has more secondaries than any other battle level vessel.
dag'karlove
Mongoose
"Narns in general: As noted theres some HORRIBLY nasty ships in the Narn fleet, the Dag'Kar and Varnic spring to mind and the G'Vrahn is verging on broken (but I think it's just the right side of that line still... (rather like the Demos and the entire Gaim fleet ). The Dag'Kar as has been noted is I think if used 'en masse' actually a pretty damn cheesy (but thats not really the fault of the ship its the tactic really, in ANY game massed long range fire tends to be very effective, very boring and very unsporting (Try 10 Saggitarius at 5pt raid or 5 Sullusts in 1st edition, or massed Nova Cannons in BFG, or fielding an elf army in WFB that takes nothing but a cheap general and as many archers as legally possible (and so on and so forth))
These are all counterable with certain forces of course but it is STILL frankly just not much fun to play against. Its this problem that tends to make the Dag'Kar a bit beardy if abused. You dont have to DO anything except scream 'Fire!' (presumably getting slowly out of your chair and clenching your fist and turning bright red a la William Shatner ) and roll a bunch of dice, theres very little TACTICS involved (this incidentally is my main beef with the Gaim, not that theyre unbeatable (I dont believe they are) just that their massed long range turret emines render them a tad dull to fight against)."- Locutus9965
To this i have to say i firmly and adamantly disagree. I am an avid Dag'kar en masse user and lover ask david an'lashok or angelus2000.. Yes i have had complaints about this and while i can understand them i have a few points to make about the tactic.
1. There are few things that make the Narn fleet what they are. Those being higher than avg dmg tracks, heavily armored hulls and Emines. The Narn are based around those and to use them successfully you have to embrace those ideals. Everyone complains about emines (especially ISA and mimbari players as it negates those other nifty rules dodge and stealth) but every race has something that is cheese, ridiculously high stealth for the mimbari, ridiculously high dodge for the ISA, excellent interceptors for the EA and centauri, geg and escort rules for the centauri. Facing white stars en masse wen they can all dodge most of your hits or never ever being able to see the mimbari or all your hits intercepted or absorbed makes it no fun for anyone else to play.
2. Emines are very easy to counter. Dont keep your ships close together and if you can survive the first volley now you have planty of time to race in close (where only a Suicidal Narn player like myself will use them) so that you are in the dmg sphere but so is said narn player. and half the ships are one shot and then the rest are slow loading. you only have to facde the nasty weapon once every other turn and now you are in close combat with everyone else. Ive seen my reliance on emines bite me in the tookus more than a few times. They are either your best friend or your worst enemy.
3. As for the serious cheese angle of emines I only point to ISA Mimbari EA (interceptors swarms of fighters) and centauri. Everyone has cheese so use yours to your advantage. The game is only as fun as you make it.
Any Admiral Brings to the fight that which will best assure him victory, thats part of the game and its tactics.
These are all counterable with certain forces of course but it is STILL frankly just not much fun to play against. Its this problem that tends to make the Dag'Kar a bit beardy if abused. You dont have to DO anything except scream 'Fire!' (presumably getting slowly out of your chair and clenching your fist and turning bright red a la William Shatner ) and roll a bunch of dice, theres very little TACTICS involved (this incidentally is my main beef with the Gaim, not that theyre unbeatable (I dont believe they are) just that their massed long range turret emines render them a tad dull to fight against)."- Locutus9965
To this i have to say i firmly and adamantly disagree. I am an avid Dag'kar en masse user and lover ask david an'lashok or angelus2000.. Yes i have had complaints about this and while i can understand them i have a few points to make about the tactic.
1. There are few things that make the Narn fleet what they are. Those being higher than avg dmg tracks, heavily armored hulls and Emines. The Narn are based around those and to use them successfully you have to embrace those ideals. Everyone complains about emines (especially ISA and mimbari players as it negates those other nifty rules dodge and stealth) but every race has something that is cheese, ridiculously high stealth for the mimbari, ridiculously high dodge for the ISA, excellent interceptors for the EA and centauri, geg and escort rules for the centauri. Facing white stars en masse wen they can all dodge most of your hits or never ever being able to see the mimbari or all your hits intercepted or absorbed makes it no fun for anyone else to play.
2. Emines are very easy to counter. Dont keep your ships close together and if you can survive the first volley now you have planty of time to race in close (where only a Suicidal Narn player like myself will use them) so that you are in the dmg sphere but so is said narn player. and half the ships are one shot and then the rest are slow loading. you only have to facde the nasty weapon once every other turn and now you are in close combat with everyone else. Ive seen my reliance on emines bite me in the tookus more than a few times. They are either your best friend or your worst enemy.
3. As for the serious cheese angle of emines I only point to ISA Mimbari EA (interceptors swarms of fighters) and centauri. Everyone has cheese so use yours to your advantage. The game is only as fun as you make it.
Any Admiral Brings to the fight that which will best assure him victory, thats part of the game and its tactics.
