Vorlon Fighter's Anti-Fighter

[Atreyeux]

Hi Guys,
I am hoping this will end an argument for me, so here goes....

I have a Vorlon fighter with another directly behind it, a Starfury in its movement phase attacks from the front. As the Starfury goes to engage in a dogfight the Vorlon Anti-Fighter trait kicks in (2" range) and shoots at the Starfury, as does the Vorlon fighter behind the first (as this is also in range).

The rules state -
'Anti-Fighter rolls may not be made against flights involved in a dogfight. However, some special fighters may also have the Anti-Fighter trait, which may be used just before the dogfight is initiated, as the enemy fighter moves into contact (if opposing fighters have the trait, they are resolved simultaneously). Once the dogfight is started, the trait may not be used.'

I believe what I had done above was correct, however, one of my opponents disagreed - his argument being that because he had moved to dogfight, I could not use my Anti-Fighter.

I argue that to get to the dogfight, he must get through the Anti-Fighter.

Am I correct (in which case Vorlon fighters stand a reasonable chance against enemy fighters) , or do I owe him an apology... :roll:

 

[Greg Smith]

The Vorlon fighter that was contacted gets to use its anti-fighter. The other Vorlon fighter doesn't.

Normal anti-fighter cannot be used against flights in a dogfight. AF possesed by a fighter can be used in exception to this rule, when a flight moves into contact with that particular fighter.

Normal anti-fighter takes place at the end of the movement phase. Fighter contact AF is an exception to that.

Now if the Starfury was attacking a Vorlon ship, both Vorlon fighters could move to within 2" and use anti-fighter on the Starfury.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

And just to clarify...
Can the Vorlon fighter use its AntiFighter if it's the one that moved into contact with the Starfury?

 

[Greg Smith]

Well...

"as the enemy fighter moves into contact" implies that it can't;

but:

"if opposing fighters have the trait, they are resolved simultaneously" implies that it can.

The consensus of opinion on the boards is that it can.

 

[Burger]

"as the enemy fighter moves into contact" implies that it can't;

Well, its all relative... as Einstein purportedly said once, "what time will the station arrive at this train?"

 

[Banichi]

What would happen if a vorlon flight attacks a flight of pak heavy fighters? Couldn't they end up shooting each other down at the same time?

 

[katadder]

yep, fun times all round

 

[cadno ap annwn]

So pretty much you can use your vorlons in a 2 line formation and take advantage of the anti-fire from the vorlons not directly engaged in the battle........is that right?

I'm asking because its been one of those things that have bugged me aswel

Cadno

 

[Banichi]

It would make keeping vorlon fighters in self supporting packs very worthwhile. I guess thats the point of their antifighter.

 

[cadno ap annwn]

I'd say so, makes them very hard to get past, great for defending capital ships. When I actually think about it, it reflects the formations you see in the series, just think back to when they spot the vorlon fleet hiding in hyperspace!!

Cadno

 

[Ripple]

No, the two line formation doesn't help. Any flight in a dogfight can only be targeted by AF from flights that they are in contact with. Re-read the rule (or Greg's quote above) and you see the trigger for the being able to use AF in a dogfight is contact.

Ripple

 

[Iain McGhee]

I don't read the rule that way (still !). AF fires "as the flight moves into contact" reads to me as if it takes place before the enemy closes to dogfight range, even although for ease of use (no opportunity fire rules in ACTA) the flights are placed in contact before resolving AF: i.e. the flights don't actually count as dogfighting until AF is resolved as the sequence goes fighter movement - AF fire (from any source) - fighter fire/dogfights. I'm AFB, but don't remember anything in the rules that states that ship mounted AF and fighter AF are treated any differently. Flights are now ships, unless it says otherwise, after all.

Not that I'm saying that Greg and Ripple are wrong. They've both been playing ACTA 2e at least as long as me and at least one of them is a playtester (I think). Might be one for Matt since it seems to come up fairly regularly.

 

[cadno ap annwn]

So following that thinking it would be mean that only the fighter flight being engaged by fighters could fire its AF?

Sorry if I'm a little slow, still learning here

Cadno

 

[Da Boss]

don't worry its confusing for us all :lol:

 

[CaptainClark]

I'm the player he was playing (and arguing) against acctually...
And I stand by my interpretation.

In all fairness, the wording (like most of the book) is unclear and could be tidied up.

However, I take the phrase "as enemy fighters move into contact" to mean, just that...the ones contacted, as contact is made (but before the dogfight technically begins). I'd assume this as it doesn't say "Before they move into contact" or "as they move into range", both of which would have very different meanings. Thus, the explicit wording "as enemy fighters move into contact", has a very specific conotation...it would seem to refer to the moment contact is made.

To put it in a Babylon 5 context....
Tick...they are moving into contact
Tock...they are in a dogfight...

The antifighter from the fighter occurs in the moment between tick and tock, the moment between seconds. In this case, the moment between contact being made and the dogfight begining.

Also, there's the fact the ruling is differentiated into two paragraphs. The first paragraph deals with "ships" with the trait, while the second mentions the trait on fighters.

I still say the key word is "contact", and in specific "as enemy fighters move into contact". Not before..."as". It's before the dogfight, but they have contacted...thus the prerequisit for the word "contact"....which means a second row would NOT be in contact and would NOT get to fire (as they couldn't till the normal time for anti-fighter traits, as they are not "contacted", or "about to be contacted", by which time the dogfight has begun)

But that's just my take...

 

[B5freak]

Cross-posting from my reply on the Rulesmasters forum:

Looking closely at the rule, the key language is,

..some special fighters may also have the Anti-Fighter trait, which may be used just before a dogfight is initiated, as enemy fighters move into contact ..

There's nothing here that states only the fighters being engaged by the enemy may make AF attacks. It only states that AF attaks made by fighter flights take place between the initiation of a dogfight and the point when opposing fighter flights are moved into base to base contact.

Based on the language, it would appear as though the Vorlon player had it right, but only a "Rulesmanster" can answer for sure.

 

[cadno ap annwn]

That's how I would have read it myself, but it does tend to lend itself to Vorlon players bunching up and being nearly impossible to take out fighter wise.

Though, Vorlon fighters need that trait compared to other fighters!!

Rich

 

[locarno24]

Though, Vorlon fighters need that trait compared to other fighters!!

No, they don't....they're assault fighters, and bloody good assault fighters at that. Not only are they hull 5, they have a beam weapon (on a damn fighter!) that out-ranges enemy anti-fighter attacks. On top of that, they're 3-per-wing affairs and it's not like Vorlon warships are helpless in the face of enemy fighters, with all of them having at least some flak.

So you're dogfight +0. It's hardly the end of the world. Advanced antifighter is very much the icing on the cake...

 

[Da Boss]

yeah agreed - just seemed an extra to make sure not only where they better than the Shadow fighters (and cheaper) but they could easily kill them as well.......... :roll:

A conspiracy I tells ya.............

 

[Locutus9956]

Ok I've not read every post in this thread but just to make it clear how the rules work:

If a fighter has the antifighter trait it can use it when contacted BEFORE dogfights are resolved. HOWEVER OTHER fighters or ships within 2" can't as they are not in the dogfight themselves. The one exception to this is escort ships can GIVE antifighter dice to fighters who can then use it as I understand it.

I tend to find the easiest way to resolve everything is to just allow fighters that are engaged to fire their antifighter at the same time everything else does, at the end of movement before shooting etc takes place, it's much simpler and doesnt get caught up in fuzzy wording about who contacted who etc.