VAS: Tactical Withdrawl Vs. Long Lance Torpedos...

[Court Jester]

A IJN destroyer fires its LL torpedos at my USN cruiser at a range of 16". They will hit at the end of the next turn but during my next movement phase (before the LL get a chance to hit) my ship makes a tactical withdrawl and leaves the table and the game. What happens to the torpedos?

 

[Burger]

If you have no ships left on the table then the game is over immediately and the torps do not get a chance to hit.

If you still have other ships then the game continues and the torps would hit.

 

[Court Jester]

If you have no ships left on the table then the game is over immediately and the torps do not get a chance to hit.

If you still have other ships then the game continues and the torps would hit.

These answers are not based on the rules.

The game does not end when there are no ships left on the table. That is not a rule in the game nor is it a rule any of the scenarios.

Specifically the "Victory at Sea" scenario ends after 10 turns and does not mention having no ships left on the table.

The "At All Costs" scenario is played untill all the ships on the table are destroyed. BUT when a ship makes a tactical withdrawl it is only considered destroyed if it withdrew off a hostile table edge.

But I will accept that the LL torps will still hit a withdrawing ship. Its un-real to expect the torps to just stop.

 

[Mr Evil]

But I will accept that the LL torps will still hit a withdrawing ship. Its un-real to expect the torps to just stop.

they could just run out of fuel ?

 

[Burger]

These answers are not based on the rules.

You're right, I am basing it on common sense. *slaps wrists*

 

[E Nicely]

If the withdrawing ship moves to more than 20" away it won't be hit by the Type 93s.

 

[Court Jester]

If the withdrawing ship moves to more than 20" away it won't be hit by the Type 93s.

That makes little sense and conflicts with other rules.

The ship is removed from the table so although you might hypothisise where its movement will finish technically it has no final movment point.

Secondly... your answer's knock on effect means that if any of my LL targeted ships move to over 20" away but remain on the table they will avoid the torps. This again has no basis in the rules and is pure conjecture. By the word of the rules once the torpedo token is placed they will hit.

Basically this situation needs a simple yes it's hit or no it's not hit without raising issues with other rules (real or assumed).

 

[Court Jester]

These answers are not based on the rules.

You're right, I am basing it on common sense. *slaps wrists*

If only wargames rules were that simple... :x

:wink:

 

[BuShips]

If the withdrawing ship moves to more than 20" away it won't be hit by the Type 93s.

Let me explain Lowly Uhlan's very good answer even a bit more with a wry twist. If you can get off the table as described above, fine. If you are within the 20", don't just remove the model. Instead, move it to a point where it is balanced over the table edge. Then the model will fall off, and thus move more than the 20" LL range.

official disclaimer: The comment above is presumed to be a point of comedy, and not to be confused with the despicably bad behavior known as "Rules Lawyering". Now, we return you to your regularly-scheduled thread flow.

 

[E Nicely]

That makes little sense and conflicts with other rules.


Secondly... your answer's knock on effect means that if any of my LL targeted ships move to over 20" away but remain on the table they will avoid the torps. This again has no basis in the rules and is pure conjecture. By the word of the rules once the torpedo token is placed they will hit.

quote]

It makes a lot of sense and conflicts with nothing. Long Lance's can absolutely be outran since torpedo damage doesn't occur until the end phase (which last time I checked happens after movement). If I'm at a range of 19" and you fire a LL at me and then I move 6" away on the next turn your LL doesn't get a turbo 5" range bonus. It's not conjecture either, go read the rules again.

Once the ship leaves the table its out of play, the torpedo salvo is lost. If it were a campaign game you woudln't have to resolve the shot as something to be repaired later. If its not a campaign game it doesn't matter once the ship leaves the table and the torp salvo is lost.

 

[Der Kommandant]

Long Lance's can absolutely be outran since torpedo damage doesn't occur until the end phase (which last time I checked happens after movement). If I'm at a range of 19" and you fire a LL at me and then I move 6" away on the next turn your LL doesn't get a turbo 5" range bonus. It's not conjecture either, go read the rules again.

go read the rules again? id love to see anything that says you can out distance a LL torp shot.

being able to do this complicates things too since now you need to try and remember where the torp was fired from to track total distace moved.

 

[E Nicely]

go read the rules again? id love to see anything that says you can out distance a LL torp shot.

being able to do this complicates things too since now you need to try and remember where the torp was fired from to track total distace moved.

Movement comes before the end phase. Torps roll Attack Dice at the end of the turn. A Long Lance has a range of 20". There isn't any way around that.

 

[BuShips]

Long Lance's can absolutely be outran since torpedo damage doesn't occur until the end phase (which last time I checked happens after movement). If I'm at a range of 19" and you fire a LL at me and then I move 6" away on the next turn your LL doesn't get a turbo 5" range bonus. It's not conjecture either, go read the rules again.

go read the rules again? id love to see anything that says you can out distance a LL torp shot.

being able to do this complicates things too since now you need to try and remember where the torp was fired from to track total distace moved.

You are using "real life", and even though you and I know that type 93's ran their duration to over the horizon, the game limits them to 'only' twice the range of other torpedoes. The rules are an abstraction.

 

[BuShips]

I jumped into this thread at first to just make a joke, but now that I've done a little reading, I'll get serious here. :wink: The way that the rules are written (atleast for a ship on the table), the torpedoes never "chase" he target at all. Neither is it necessary to mark the firing location and this is a good method to handle this in a simple rules set. For LL torps if a target is at 20" or less you place the counter next to the target as you do with 10" ranged torps, except the counter "travels" with the ship and attacks in the next end phase, which would be an extra turn's delay. So, to bring back the original question, does the ship that has left the table have any right to "escape" this attack, as it was earned within normal game play? Actually, it could be argued either way, but I'd favor finishing the attack as it was earned within normal play. In other words, I'd allow the torpedoes to attack and record any damage normally. If the ship could still float at the end of the attack, so be it even if the attack served to stop all movement and place it dead in the water. The ship would just be dead in the water and also over the horizon, too. That's my take on the issue.

 

[Court Jester]

I'm sorry Lowly Uhlan but you are wrong here.

You only check to see if a torpedo salvo is in range when you place the token in contact with the enemy ship. There is nothing in the rules that says the ship must still be in range during the end phase when the AD are rolled.

The Long Lance rules even say that the counter moves with the ship if need be during the next turn.

 

[Court Jester]

Once the ship leaves the table its out of play, the torpedo salvo is lost. If it were a campaign game you woudln't have to resolve the shot as something to be repaired later. If its not a campaign game it doesn't matter once the ship leaves the table and the torp salvo is lost.

This is the bit that is important. And there is nothing in the rules to cover the situation so the ruling is helpful, thank you.

 

[Burger]

go read the rules again? id love to see anything that says you can out distance a LL torp shot.

being able to do this complicates things too since now you need to try and remember where the torp was fired from to track total distace moved.

Movement comes before the end phase. Torps roll Attack Dice at the end of the turn. A Long Lance has a range of 20". There isn't any way around that.

How does the FIRING ship affect that range? Nobody has yet mentioned the TARGET ship moving, at all! The target was within 20" when the torp was fired. What difference does it make how far the firing ship moves after it has fired? For all the torp cares, it could move off the table, over 20" away, or to the Moon???

 

[Court Jester]

go read the rules again? id love to see anything that says you can out distance a LL torp shot.

being able to do this complicates things too since now you need to try and remember where the torp was fired from to track total distace moved.

Movement comes before the end phase. Torps roll Attack Dice at the end of the turn. A Long Lance has a range of 20". There isn't any way around that.

How does the FIRING ship affect that range? Nobody has yet mentioned the TARGET ship moving, at all! The target was within 20" when the torp was fired. What difference does it make how far the firing ship moves after it has fired? For all the torp cares, it could move off the table, over 20" away, or to the Moon???

My question was about the target ship... in fact I believe the entire thread has been about the target ship. :?

 

[Burger]

Ohhhh I read that totally wrong then.

In that case it is an easy question and is answered in the book. The section on tactical withdrawls states that when a ship withdraws it escapes to safety but gives up 1/4 of its VPs if the edge is friendly, or full VP if the edge is hostile.

 

[Court Jester]

Thats all I need to confirm. My reading of the rules led me to that conclusion as well but I know there are plenty of p[eople that would argue the LL torps will still hit because in reality the torps would not just stop... :lol: