Vargr weakness

[Lowsonic]

The Vargr are (other than the -2 vs -1 on Str) the same or better than they have been since they were first introduced.

Except their initial -1DM was only to gun combat. Now it is all sight-based skill rolls. Place those door charges in the dark -1DM, drive up on an enemy base in the dark -1DM and so on. Assuming an 8+ target on a 0-skill roll your 33% weaker. On a 1 skill the effect is more and back to 33% on a 2 skill.

Nope, the -2 STR and -1DM on sight skills is worse than they’ve ever been (even v D20!!)

But even stat munching aside, it just detracts from the fearsome Corsair image that to my way of seeing them was core to their character. Aslan, based on Larry Niven’s kzinti, were/ are big bruising samurai-like warriors. Vargr were the swashbuckling buccaneers. The -1DM in dark makes the buckle less swashy.

 

[Vormaerin]

They seem more like the Chanur than the Kzin, but that's a tangent. The Vargr remind me of a somewhat less awful version of the Kif in terms of culture rather than Pirates of Penzance.

Anyway, if you want the Vargr reputation for corsairs to be based on boarding prowess for some reason, you do need to significantly alter their design. I, personally, don't think that has anything to do with it.

Personally, I think it makes more sense for poor night vision to penalize night vision in general, not just gunfire. I think the intent of the original rule was that their other senses compensate for a lot of other night time activities. Spotting things in the dark is going to be smell/hearing for Vargr less than sight, for instance.

 

[Condottiere]

Sounds like candidates for cyberpunk enhancements.

 

[Saladman]

... if you assume a 7 stat, that just makes Vargr an 8...

This is the problem with white room theory-crafting. The only way a player puts a 7 in Dex with a Vargr is if they've rolled nothing but 7s and 6s. Possible, but not the usual case. And even then, it gets them closer to a Personal Development roll or later augment as Condottiere points out pushing them over the edge.

In fact with stats assigned where you want them, for stat bonus/penalty purposes there's little immediate difference between a +/-1 and a +/-2; players still place scores at break points, and the 2 never gets you more than a +1 modifier. It's more that the +2 opens up more fine control elsewhere by freeing up more numbers, or it might interact with further stat gains and losses in character generation.

And all that said, I agree if you don't like it change it, it's just it's not as bad as you're making it out.

Tangent - Mac Miller's original assumption with classic Traveller was that every GM would be rolling their campaign universes, with greater or lesser departures from the implied setting of the core rules. As with Gygax's experience with D&D, that plan did not long survive contact with consumer demand, giving us AD&D and the Third Imperium respectively. But it's still worth remembering that making the game and the world your own is part of the job of the GM. If you find yourself needing to make changes to races, careers, events or anything else - do so.

 

[Lowsonic]

They seem more like the Chanur than the Kzin

Possibly, but the Kzin stories by Niven were written in starting from 1966, were written into the animated Star Trek in the 1970’s and they were also covered in a Dragon Magazine article just prior to their release in Traveller. Oh, and referenced in FGW’s 1980 Space Opera (as were the first canine races). The first chanur stories didn’t start until 1981. The first Aslan reference in Traveller is 1983.

Oh, and the Aslan and Kzin fit the same physical description right down to their three fingers and so on. But like you say a tangent.

Looking to the first Vargr reference in the Alien Module 3, it notes on page 3 ...

Vargr eyesight is much sharper than human sight but responds differently to colours.

Albeit true, they suffer -1 in gun combat at night (though also had a claw attack as well as bite)

As to stats, if your trying for a non-rogue Vargr, then given the penalty it is likely better to put your highest stat not in DEX but END give. Some of the survival rolls. Thus you’re more likely to be putting an 8-9 in DEX

Still - the debate has stimulated responses!

 

[Vormaerin]

This is the problem with white room theory-crafting. The only way a player puts a 7 in Dex with a Vargr is if they've rolled nothing but 7s and 6s. Possible, but not the usual case. And even then, it gets them closer to a Personal Development roll or later augment as Condottiere points out pushing them over the edge.

In fact with stats assigned where you want them, for stat bonus/penalty purposes there's little immediate difference between a +/-1 and a +/-2; players still place scores at break points, and the 2 never gets you more than a +1 modifier. It's more that the +2 opens up more fine control elsewhere by freeing up more numbers, or it might interact with further stat gains and losses in character generation.

And all that said, I agree if you don't like it change it, it's just it's not as bad as you're making it out.

Tangent - Mac Miller's original assumption with classic Traveller was that every GM would be rolling their campaign universes, with greater or lesser departures from the implied setting of the core rules. As with Gygax's experience with D&D, that plan did not long survive contact with consumer demand, giving us AD&D and the Third Imperium respectively. But it's still worth remembering that making the game and the world your own is part of the job of the GM. If you find yourself needing to make changes to races, careers, events or anything else - do so.

You quoted me, but I didn't make any of the arguments that you are fighting against. But even the guy you are actually talking to was talking about generic mobs of Vargr corsairs, not specifically about PCs. The UPP of a rando Vargr in MgT2e is 58776. A PC would, of course, arrange stats to make the best use of the Vargr Dex bonus, especially since Dex is far and away the most valuable physical stat.

 

[Lowsonic]

You quoted me, but I didn't make any of the arguments that you are fighting against. But even the guy you are actually talking to was talking about generic mobs of Vargr corsairs, not specifically about PCs. The UPP of a rando Vargr in MgT2e is 58776. A PC would, of course, arrange stats to make the best use of the Vargr Dex bonus, especially since Dex is far and away the most valuable physical stat.

Only quoted you on the Chanur v Kzin

Apologies if it seemed cross referenced

 

[Condottiere]

One advantage they have, if you can call it that, is that you can pretty much project on Vargr any arche/stereotype you want.

One of which is tinker gnomes.

 

[Vormaerin]

Only quoted you on the Chanur v Kzin

Apologies if it seemed cross referenced

No worries. I was responding to Saladman's quote of me. Yours slipped in while I was posting

 

[GypsyComet]

The first chanur stories didn’t start until 1981. The first Aslan reference in Traveller is 1983.

The Aslan appeared in JTAS #7 in 1981. Their stand alone book was in 1984.

I've been told that GDW and C J Cherryh have come to the conclusion that the two were parallel developments.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

CT Aslan are very similar to the Hani, but it has to be a coincidence considering the timing.
Aslan are only superficially leonine.
Aslan are nothing like the Kzinti or the Kilrathi, and this is one of the reasons I really don't like PoD or the Glorious Empire as being in the Third Imperium setting.
Put them in an alternative universe and they are excellent.

 

[Lowsonic]

We would seem to have a different image of either the Kzinti or the Aslan

 

[Vormaerin]

We would seem to have a different image of either the Kzinti or the Aslan

Culturally, they are quite different. But lots of artists and authors have leaned into the 'cat' image in ways that aren't supported by the original material.

 

[Lowsonic]

Based on CTA1 Aslan are 2m tall 100kg with - based on the illustration and text- hairless tail, spiky ears, three fingers, claws.

Kzin are, admittedly, taller at 8ft and also heavier at 500lb, but have bat-like ears, three fingers, claws... ie very physically similar

While the cultures are not identical, both are aggressive, fiercely patriarchal and with a strong ethical code / code of honour. And developed with a pride-like social structure

Seems a lot of overlap to me

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, they are both felinoid and Mark clearly drew some inspiration from lions (hence the name). Of course, Aslan rely on their thumb claw (dewclaw) not finger claws and they have digitigrade feet, which the Kzinti don't. And, most importantly, Aslan females are intelligent and critical to the functioning of Aslan society. They are much closer to the Hani, though not exactly like them either.

Is it likely that Marc was familiar with the Kzinti and it had some influence on his space lion people? Sure. I don't know if he's said anything about that one way or the other, but that's how influence works. Are the Aslan a pastiche of Kzinti? Not even remotely.

 

[GypsyComet]

Probably a good point to bump the Aslan to their own thread...

 

[Lowsonic]

Yep and agree to differ

 

[Shadowblayde99]

I'm have no problems with vargr stats. I just find that I can't take them seriously when the art in the 2022 core book update has vargr having Tom Baker Dr Who scarves or acid smiley face eye patches.

 

[alex_greene]

Hi - just picked up the 2022 core rules and disappointed to note Vargr are even weaker than they used to be.
Aslan are STR +2, DEX -2 (net 0) get a few claw doing 1D+2 and boost to Recon and Survival
Vargr used to be STR -1 but that’s now -2, then DEX +1, END -1 (now net -2) with a bite doing 1D+1 (1 less than the Aslan) and their +1 Recon & Survival bonus has a limitation in that they suffer a -1 to ANY sight-based skill check in dark conditions (so as well as Recon & Survival it affects night gunfights, night driving if no lights, the list could be extensive)

So why choose a Vargr?

You could ignore the pluses and minuses. Each new iteration of Trav makes all the species even weaker, somehow.
Zhodani may have psionics, but their TL is stagnant at TL 14 so the Imperial WASPS can have the technological superiority. Aslan, Vargr and other species are somehow lesser in some way - smaller characteristic die rolls, inferior senses - just to give the humans a sense of advantage.

No, not advantage. Supremacy.