Vargr weakness

[Lowsonic]

Hi - just picked up the 2022 core rules and disappointed to note Vargr are even weaker than they used to be.
Aslan are STR +2, DEX -2 (net 0) get a few claw doing 1D+2 and boost to Recon and Survival
Vargr used to be STR -1 but that’s now -2, then DEX +1, END -1 (now net -2) with a bite doing 1D+1 (1 less than the Aslan) and their +1 Recon & Survival bonus has a limitation in that they suffer a -1 to ANY sight-based skill check in dark conditions (so as well as Recon & Survival it affects night gunfights, night driving if no lights, the list could be extensive)

So why choose a Vargr?

That disappoints me

Rgds
Nick

 

[Vormaerin]

Because they are way cooler than an Aslan? Anyway, I think you'll find that Traveller alien stats are not balanced mathematically across species like D&D core races try to be.

 

[Lowsonic]

Don’t disagree about the races being unbalanced, it’s just that they made Vargr more unbalanced. Given your stat mods are important a -2 around an 8 average is a big statistical disadvantage. Especially given the -1 to sight-based skill rolls in the dark (which given how well smell compensates for foxes & wolves) seems to really hinder Vargr characters if they don’t choose to be rogues.

Ah well, just my disappointment as I’m a Vargr person not an Aslan person

 

[Saladman]

My copy of 2e says STR -1 DEX +1 END -1. If there's a printing that has -2 that's probably an error rather than intentional. Still net -1 rather than net zero, but the difference is important on a 2d6 scale.

Also Dex governs more skills than Str or End. The stats simply aren't perfectly balanced the way they might be in, say, some editions of D&D (theoretically anyway).

So why choose a Vargr?

Because you want to play a Vargr, rather than for the pluses.* Although I broadly prefer balanced choices myself, and my houserules in 1e reflected that, it's not a deal breaker for me. Another way to look at it would be, if you're stacking a Vargr's +/-'s where you want them on a character, you're already coming out ahead of playing a human with +/- 0 everywhere. The minuses are real, but probably not on your most desired skills.

... and their +1 Recon & Survival bonus has a limitation in that they suffer a -1 to ANY sight-based skill check in dark conditions (so as well as Recon & Survival it affects night gunfights, night driving if no lights, the list could be extensive)

You're leaving something out there, but how much you get from it will depend on GM. The language in the rulebook is "Vargr have better hearing and sense of smell than humans. All Vargr receive DM+1 to any Recon and Survival checks they have to make."

GM call: does better smell sometimes mean they can recognize odors or follow trails that humans simply can't, or is +1 to Recon and Survival the only thing they ever get from that? With better hearing, can they sometimes hear a frequency or conversation a human simply can't, or is it only rolled into a +1 on a thing a human can also roll for? As GM I would rule it's an extra capacity not fully represented by the +1, but I imagine there are GMs out there who rule the second way.

In a perfect world, don't run under bad GMs, be willing to walk away, but I know that's not always possible if they're not bad in every way.

*This won't help you at all unless you're the GM, but a thing I've been thinking about across several systems is there's nothing automatic or even desirable about handling all stat strengths and weaknesses with a +2/-2. In D&D it could easily be minimums and maximums (and I think was in some early editions). In current Traveller it could easily be rolling strong stats with Boon and weak stats with Bane (in which case I would give Vargr and everything else equal numbers of good and bad stats.) That gives you a meaningful impact, but without the full powergaming impact of being able to put a +2 on your best stat.

 

[Lowsonic]

I’m referring to the 2022 core rules update version.

It also has that Vargr suffer a -1 to sight based skills in the dark. If you assume combat is a sight based skill then that is a big disadvantage for aliens tending to rogue types. If you need an 8+ normally then that becomes 9+ and your odds of success just dropped by a third! Ditto at +2. Unless, as you say, you could use smell to compensate

 

[Vormaerin]

Those are the stats in Core Rules 2022 and Aliens 1, so I assume that is correct.

Stat modifiers are in 3 pt bands, so a 6, 7, or 8 is identical for modifier purposes. Obviously, it affects the ability to take damage and is more likely to cause a -1 stat bonus shift than a -1 to the raw stat would. The vision penalty is more severe, though a Vargr could compensate with more extensive use of light amplication tech even if the GM doesn't allow the Vargr's other senses to compensate.

 

[Lowsonic]

I’m referring to the 2022 core rules update version.

It also has that Vargr suffer a -1 to sight based skills in the dark. If you assume combat is a sight based skill then that is a big disadvantage for aliens tending to rogue types. If you need an 8+ normally then that becomes 9+ and your odds of success just dropped by a third!

Those are the stats in Core Rules 2022 and Aliens 1, so I assume that is correct.

Stat modifiers are in 3 pt bands, so a 6, 7, or 8 is identical for modifier purposes. Obviously, it affects the ability to take damage and is more likely to cause a -1 stat bonus shift than a -1 to the raw stat would. The vision penalty is more severe, though a Vargr could compensate with more extensive use of light amplication tech even if the GM doesn't allow the Vargr's other senses to compensate.

the vision penalty seems massive as you cannot just use study to compensate. Plus it’s the equivalent to -3 on a stat in the dark if sight based and most activity would be sight based bar social interaction! I think it is too big a penalty.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

Why would races be balanced? How do you measure balance anyway?
There are other issues besides stats - choosing a Vargr in some regions might pose problems as always being treated with mistrust or suchlike.
Have you seen some of the wacky aliens they have in other supplements. (Orca) Balancing them would not only be impossible but silly.

 

[Vormaerin]

I’m referring to the 2022 core rules update version.

It also has that Vargr suffer a -1 to sight based skills in the dark. If you assume combat is a sight based skill then that is a big disadvantage for aliens tending to rogue types. If you need an 8+ normally then that becomes 9+ and your odds of success just dropped by a third!

the vision penalty seems massive as you cannot just use study to compensate. Plus it’s the equivalent to -3 on a stat in the dark if sight based and most activity would be sight based bar social interaction! I think it is too big a penalty.

This is the 57th century. There's approximately 643 thousand ways to compensate for poor night vision. I have far more than -1 to seeing past the end of my nose without technological assistance and I seem to do fine. And I don't have tech 15 stuff.

 

[Garran]

It seems especially out of place to give the canid race WORSE low light vision, and IIRC other versions of Traveller don't do that. Mongoose just seems to like piling negatives onto the vargr for whatever reason.

 

[Lowsonic]

Given the three “main” races - ie the ones in the main rules - you would expect some balance. I’m not saying full balance, but when mgT1e had STR-1 and no dark sight penalty and now STR-2 and a dark sight penalty seems ill-thought. Tech may amend the problem, but look at game balance without it.

If you are playing “animal” advantage, a canines sense of smell is way better than a cat so should recon be +2? Canines don’t see as well by colour but see better by movement. And consider foxes & wolves- they are frequently out at night - more so than humans.

As Garran said, the changes seem to be against Vargr while Aslan are left alone. For me, I find it a mistake and given 2e gives you three base races, I think it should have a bit more balance because I think -1 in the dark is too big a minus. Unless you think spec isn’t dark.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

Worrying a +/- 1 here and there, does sound like you are after full balance, D&D-style. In an RPG setting , the R part should carry more weight than than the odd + or -. Choice of race should have significant effects in-game, way beyond some trivial skill bonus. Unless your GM is one of these "roll a skill check to see if you sneeze successfully".

Also, Aslans , I seem to remember, are not uplifted cats , but descended from some kind of quadruped. So I wouldn't over compare them to our tigers and lions.

 

[Condottiere]

As long as you can milk them.

 

[Vormaerin]

The "Aslan are cats" thing was supposed to be kind of a joke. But it is consistently leaned into by subsequent authors. Aslan are descended from forest dwelling pouncers. There is no suggestion they were ever more quadrupedal than monkeys. The change from primarily solitary hunters to pack hunters and the growth of intelligence was a result of climate change and being forced into hunting larger plains dwelling animals.

Vargr Str penalty has traditionally been -1, so the change to -2 does seem strange. Their claws have always sucked and they traditionally didn't have a bite attack different from the rest of their "infighting" ability, though they did bite as part of their brawling tactics.

As far as the skill penalty, this is what it says in Classic Traveller Alien Module 3: Vargr:
Night: Although Vargr eyesight is generally better than humans, their eyes are not quite as well adapted to darkness. Vision is the same as for humans, but DM - 1 for Vargr making attacks with guns in full or partial darkness. Electronic sights and other light enhancement equipment offsets this disadvantage.

Not sure what you want to hear. If you don't like the rules, change them.

 

[Vormaerin]

Aslan do have a weird sleep cycle compared to humans and Vargr. They tend to be up about 20 hours and then need to sleep 10-12 hours, vs the standard 16 hours with 8 hours of sleep. Dunno if you think that counts as a downside or not.

The reality is that since they were introduced, the Vargr have been statistically "worse" than the Aslan. Unless you consider that being 2 better at Dex is generally more useful than being 2 better in Str and End. Most characters will use Dex as a skill mod (gun combat? Pilot? Dodge?) a lot more often than Str or End.

 

[Lowsonic]

It’s more the 1e Vargr v 2e Vargr. The sight mod wasn’t in 1e and the STR has been reduced. It weakens them with no apparent offset. Hence the topic is “Vargr weakness”. It seems some agree, some don’t.

If I’m the GM the sight weakness goes - it is too big an effect for a space game (space often being dark) and given there is no other apparent dark mod in the game. A Vargr pirate will struggle in a boarding action without floodlights or goggles. That seems to run against the Corsair image. They are supposed to be feared Pirates.

Other GMs may well play the rules as written and for me the effect is disappointingly too big - it even goes further than the effect noted by Vormaerin from the earlier module.

2e seems to be 5e-ing 1e, simplifying the system and it seems the way it is written hasn’t considered the consequences. The problem is it’s the new “official” rule.

 

[Condottiere]

It's been quite a while since I studied Vargr character generation.

So the question might be, what opportunities, if not advantages, do Vargr characters have, that humans don't?

 

[Lowsonic]

-2 net to stats, dark impairment, but a 1D+1 bite (no use in vacuum) and heightened senses for survival & recon.

So when those fearsome Vargr corsairs raid your ship, turn out the lights, trigger a localised EMP pulse to kill their light intensifier goggles, decompress the sections they’re in to force them to wear respirators and you have countered all but their heightened recon & survival (which mainly rely on sound as the respirators should cancel smell (though that is not in the rules )

Take away the sight penalty and the only thing you do is cancel the bite while the crew have to fight with them too so no big penalty.

The sight mod makes them far less fearsome as fearsome corsairs. Especially when knocking out your life support puts them at a bigger disadvantage!!!

 

[Vormaerin]

The Vargr are (other than the -2 vs -1 on Str) the same or better than they have been since they were first introduced. The fact that Mongoose got them wrong in 1e is not particularly unusual about 1e nor particularly relevant, imho. For the last 40 years (except in 1e), they've had bad night vision, net negative stat mods, and no bite attack that was mechanically different from normal unarmed combat strikes. The only way they are worse in MgT2e than historically is the Str penalty being -2 instead of -1. (Afaik, the only previous edition where they had a -2 STR was D20 Traveller, which is mechanically entirely different) Given stat mods are in bands of 3 and the general irrelevance of STR as a skill modifier, that additional -1 may or may not have a mechanical impact.

That said, change them in your campaign if you want your Vargr to be better than they are in the official universe. No one is going to come to your gaming group and arrest if you do.

 

[Vormaerin]

It's been quite a while since I studied Vargr character generation.

So the question might be, what opportunities, if not advantages, do Vargr characters have, that humans don't?

Vargr have better senses overall, which mechanically is +1 to Recon and Survival. They traditionally have superior sprinting ability, though lower ability to sustain high speed travel. I don't think that is reflected in MgT though. Obviously, +1 Dex is potentially pretty nice considering the substantial value of Dex in ground and space combat, but if you assume a 7 stat, that just makes Vargr an 8, which is no change in the bonus.

They are not and have never been the "power gamer" choice. Their coolness is entirely in their culture and roleplaying.