Updated Vehicle Handbook in the works

Geir

Emperor Mongoose
Just to let you know and to solicit, well, opinions and frustrations, I am working on an update to the Vehicle Handbook to address at least the things that have left me a bit frustrated with the current edition and some other things.

This is not a Fire, Fusion, and Steel-type redo, but in line with the Robot Handbook (and yes, there will be a spreadsheet, but it’s a total disaster right now – or at least only ‘partially functional’).

Like the current Vehicle Handbook, this book will use Spaces, and it’s basically 4 Spaces to a dton (as a general rule – some things, like a sailing ship, take up more volume than a boxcar). So, the assumption is still, as I did in Robots, that the basic structure, locomotion, fuel, power, and transmission eat half the volume by default and Spaces are what are left to mess with. That varies, obviously, for things without an engine or without locomotion. And there will be other options for power – not just the stuff in there now, but there’s a Fusion Plus vehicle article already in the pipeline for JTAS, among other things.

Which brings me to another goal: Structures. A structure (building, outpost, flying city, etc.) is about the right scale for a vehicles book and can use most of the customisations and options of a vehicle, so I am including structures as a vehicle ‘Type’ and structures will have more available spaces than other ‘vehicles’ (just like in Robots, where you can remove the manipulators to give yourself some more slots).

The tag line in my head is ‘Build everything from a chariot to a grav tank and from an outhouse to a flying city’. I will also attempt to make some better construction rules for building your own outpost (or starport – but not at the level of counting all the freshers, or anything silly like that – but at the same level as you can make a starport with Highguard), but that chapter is only a title at the moment.

So, I’m completely open to input and to being told I’m dead wrong, but my style of accepting input is to consider it, and then decide whether I want to do it differently. Which might mean that I completely change my path, or say:

‘Well, that’s interesting, but I’m not going to do it that way.’ And I may or may not follow up with ‘And here’s why.’ (And even if I want to do it a certain way, there’s a higher level of veto so even if I want to do something different, I can get overruled).

A couple of things that have come up in the last couple of days:

Why do heavy vehicles cost more than light vehicles per Space, especially since they’re slower and less agile by default and that pricing model doesn’t correspond to anything in Highguard or Robots? (no reason I can think of)

Trains: went away with the current edition and the towing rules are not adequate. And Martin seems to put a train into many of his adventures somehow, so it would be nice to do it right. I think I have a handle on this one. In addition to vehicle Types (not irregularly broken down into various sizes for light and heavy – size is just a property, not a Type), the customisations on the bottom of the current Type pages are now Features that can be applied to various Types (Features like: ATV, Open Frame, Rail Rider, Streamlined, etc.). I just added a Feature of ‘Locomotive’, which has larger tow capabilities (and can also be applied to things like watercraft – it’s a tugboat!) and slower Speed Band changes (built for strength, not speed) and will increase towing capacity even further when vehicles are on certain types of rails. Grav trains… well that may be a can of rotten worms.

So, there you go. I can promise I will read your suggestions, but I may step away from some conversations that aren’t going anywhere helpful. And I reserve the right to say: Nope.
 
Just to let you know and to solicit, well, opinions and frustrations, I am working on an update to the Vehicle Handbook to address at least the things that have left me a bit frustrated with the current edition and some other things.

This is not a Fire, Fusion, and Steel-type redo, but in line with the Robot Handbook (and yes, there will be a spreadsheet, but it’s a total disaster right now – or at least only ‘partially functional’).

Like the current Vehicle Handbook, this book will use Spaces, and it’s basically 4 Spaces to a dton (as a general rule – some things, like a sailing ship, take up more volume than a boxcar). So, the assumption is still, as I did in Robots, that the basic structure, locomotion, fuel, power, and transmission eat half the volume by default and Spaces are what are left to mess with. That varies, obviously, for things without an engine or without locomotion. And there will be other options for power – not just the stuff in there now, but there’s a Fusion Plus vehicle article already in the pipeline for JTAS, among other things.

Which brings me to another goal: Structures. A structure (building, outpost, flying city, etc.) is about the right scale for a vehicles book and can use most of the customisations and options of a vehicle, so I am including structures as a vehicle ‘Type’ and structures will have more available spaces than other ‘vehicles’ (just like in Robots, where you can remove the manipulators to give yourself some more slots).

The tag line in my head is ‘Build everything from a chariot to a grav tank and from an outhouse to a flying city’. I will also attempt to make some better construction rules for building your own outpost (or starport – but not at the level of counting all the freshers, or anything silly like that – but at the same level as you can make a starport with Highguard), but that chapter is only a title at the moment.

So, I’m completely open to input and to being told I’m dead wrong, but my style of accepting input is to consider it, and then decide whether I want to do it differently. Which might mean that I completely change my path, or say:

‘Well, that’s interesting, but I’m not going to do it that way.’ And I may or may not follow up with ‘And here’s why.’ (And even if I want to do it a certain way, there’s a higher level of veto so even if I want to do something different, I can get overruled).

A couple of things that have come up in the last couple of days:

Why do heavy vehicles cost more than light vehicles per Space, especially since they’re slower and less agile by default and that pricing model doesn’t correspond to anything in Highguard or Robots? (no reason I can think of)

Trains: went away with the current edition and the towing rules are not adequate. And Martin seems to put a train into many of his adventures somehow, so it would be nice to do it right. I think I have a handle on this one. In addition to vehicle Types (not irregularly broken down into various sizes for light and heavy – size is just a property, not a Type), the customisations on the bottom of the current Type pages are now Features that can be applied to various Types (Features like: ATV, Open Frame, Rail Rider, Streamlined, etc.). I just added a Feature of ‘Locomotive’, which has larger tow capabilities (and can also be applied to things like watercraft – it’s a tugboat!) and slower Speed Band changes (built for strength, not speed) and will increase towing capacity even further when vehicles are on certain types of rails. Grav trains… well that may be a can of rotten worms.

So, there you go. I can promise I will read your suggestions, but I may step away from some conversations that aren’t going anywhere helpful. And I reserve the right to say: Nope.
You've already heard most of My ideas. I trust your judgement and will definitely buy the new book when it comes out. If you want to bounce anything off of Me, feel free to drop Me a message. Geir to the rescue! :)
 
The Vehicles book defines a space as the volume of a human seated at a workstation ~2 cubic metres.

A displacement ton according to the MgT CRB and HG is 14 cubic metres.

So I would set the conversion rate as 6 space = 1 displacement ton

Now to vehicle power plants.

Back in Striker days the minimum size for a vehicle power plant was... 1 cubic metre.
this is too big for a motor bike :), so I would suggest power plants start at 0.1 spaces, with minimum sizes for the different types, outputs that increase with TL, scale efficiency, more fuel efficiency at higher TLs, and things like turbos for ICE. There should be overlap and integration with Robots here.

Nelphine added this - "So I think I'd go 6 to 1 for space to dton. Open frame vehicles get to use all of the spaces. Light vehicles have to 'spend' 1 space out of 6 on their structure, so can only fill 5 out of 6 spaces. Heavy vehicles have to spend 2 out of 6 on their structure, so can only fill 4 out of 6."

next - the actual space taken by a person ay a workstation
cramped 0.5 space
ergonomic 0.5 space (costs more)
standard 1 space

passenger
0.5 spaces seated

Start with power plants and people and work up from there...
 
Should Grav vehicles affect nearby electronics as they fly/drive past electronic devices? This is a detail in the Tales from the Loop "magnetrine" vessels, but I cannot currently find similar in Traveller. As an opinion, I think there should be something like that, possibly limiting their use. But TFTL is set in a 1980's alternate history, rather than the far far future of Traveller tech. So, has Traveller tech gone beyond electro-magnetic limitations of current understanding, to arrive at a different science? Maybe could explain in VH Update?
 
Should Grav vehicles affect nearby electronics as they fly/drive past electronic devices? This is a detail in the Tales from the Loop "magnetrine" vessels, but I cannot currently find similar in Traveller. As an opinion, I think there should be something like that, possibly limiting their use. But TFTL is set in a 1980's alternate history, rather than the far far future of Traveller tech. So, has Traveller tech gone beyond electro-magnetic limitations of current understanding, to arrive at a different science? Maybe could explain in VH Update?
I wasn't aware that gravitics was electro-magnetic.
 
The tag line in my head is ‘Build everything from a chariot to a grav tank and from an outhouse to a flying city’. I will also attempt to make some better construction rules for building your own outpost (or starport – but not at the level of counting all the freshers, or anything silly like that – but at the same level as you can make a starport with Highguard), but that chapter is only a title at the moment.
Honestly, I'd prefer the book remain focused on vehicles.

I don't need rules for creating buildings on a planet or a flying city (as awesome as the latter would be) - if I need a structure of this sort, it's probaly not interacting with any game rules at the table, and if it comes to the point where it does (probably due to someone trying to shoot through it or blow it up), I'd much rather rule on the fly than crunch through a spreadsheet beforehand in the off-chance that it comes up.

Vehicles, on the other hand, have a lot of rules interactions by their very nature and are also something players could easily end up trying to build or have built, so having a solid design framework for them along with the usual examples is, for me, the #1 priority for this book.

Of course, if you find you have a bunch of pages left to fill for some reason, I would certainly enjoy reading about designing flying cities, but I'd probably never actually use it.
 
Honestly, I'd prefer the book remain focused on vehicles.

I don't need rules for creating buildings on a planet or a flying city (as awesome as the latter would be) - if I need a structure of this sort, it's probaly not interacting with any game rules at the table, and if it comes to the point where it does (probably due to someone trying to shoot through it or blow it up), I'd much rather rule on the fly than crunch through a spreadsheet beforehand in the off-chance that it comes up.

Vehicles, on the other hand, have a lot of rules interactions by their very nature and are also something players could easily end up trying to build or have built, so having a solid design framework for them along with the usual examples is, for me, the #1 priority for this book.

Of course, if you find you have a bunch of pages left to fill for some reason, I would certainly enjoy reading about designing flying cities, but I'd probably never actually use it.
I need structures. I will use it every time I design a base.
 
Should Grav vehicles affect nearby electronics as they fly/drive past electronic devices?
Gratuitously flip answer: "Whichever way sounds better to me when the question comes up".
Physicalist answer: "Depends on how the rubber science works, but remember that the gravitational force is stupendously weak compared to electromagnetism. Got a whiteboard?"
Practicalist answer: "Well, gravitics comes in at TL9, and given how massively useful both it and electronics would be, a lot of skull sweat would go into mitigating any interference between there and higher TLs."
 
I wasn't aware that gravitics was electro-magnetic.
Oh . Okay. I assumed they were.
Is gravity powered by electricity? Your cell phone is powered by electricity but does not cause other electronic devices to fail. and that is actually electro-magnetic.
Cell phone signals are quite minute. Not likely to cause bit flips. An electro-magnetic tech that could lift tons more likely to be higher current, and cause neighbouring interference.
 
Is gravity powered by electricity? Your cell phone is powered by electricity but does not cause other electronic devices to fail. and that is actually electro-magnetic.
Then why did you get told to turn them off in hospitals up until a few years ago...
 
A. 4 Spaces to a dton and a basic assumption of half isn't defined, but can be modified later on. Compatibility:- this is an update to fix and expand, not completely demolish and start over. If you hated what I did with slots in the Robot Handbook, you'll hate this too, if you could live with, you can probably live with this too. Still converging on components and things, though, to make an easier transition in some undefined future rev.

i.) A motorbike can be one space and you can still do non-space feature modifications to change performance.

B. A houseboat, or a double-wide or a motorhome. A Structure is just one of ten vehicle Types and will probably see more use than the Airship Type unless you're doing Dieselpunk (but you can!). The point is flexibility: you could probably even do Santa's sleigh as a lifter-equipped open-topped vehicle, with robotic flying reindeer towing it along. (can't go hypersonic or even supersonic, though... not a good fit for the Open-Topped Feature.)

C. Nowhere in 47 years of Traveller have I seen any mention of grav vehicles screwing with electrical devices, not going to start now.
 
A. 4 Spaces to a dton and a basic assumption of half isn't defined, but can be modified later on. Compatibility:- this is an update to fix and expand, not completely demolish and start over. If you hated what I did with slots in the Robot Handbook, you'll hate this too, if you could live with, you can probably live with this too. Still converging on components and things, though, to make an easier transition in some undefined future rev.

i.) A motorbike can be one space and you can still do non-space feature modifications to change performance.

B. A houseboat, or a double-wide or a motorhome. A Structure is just one of ten vehicle Types and will probably see more use than the Airship Type unless you're doing Dieselpunk (but you can!). The point is flexibility: you could probably even do Santa's sleigh as a lifter-equipped open-topped vehicle, with robotic flying reindeer towing it along. (can't go hypersonic or even supersonic, though... not a good fit for the Open-Topped Feature.)

C. Nowhere in 47 years of Traveller have I seen any mention of grav vehicles screwing with electrical devices, not going to start now.
Crap! Now I want to build Santa's Sleigh! :)
 
C. Nowhere in 47 years of Traveller have I seen any mention of grav vehicles screwing with electrical devices, not going to start now.
Or ion weapons in the Third Imperium, or personal energy screens, or a sophont having to be onboard a ship for it to jump without penalty...
there are many things MgT has introduced to the setting, and other setting elements it has ignored - fusion+, wafer personalities, makers...

MgT 2e is getting to the same point that 1e suffered from, rule variants scattered all over the place, incompatible rules, contradictory rules, the 2e updates only add to that with different rules in HG2e and HG2e update. Is putting a plaster on vehicles worth it as a 2025 update or is it time to start thinking about doing a complete revision for a joined up 3e where robots, vehicles, weapons, and ships can all benefit from a coordinated construction system. Then make authors use it rather than making up their own rules.
 
If We wait for that, it will never happen before 3rd Edition. Mongoose has a ton on their plate as is.
Fair enough! I just want the vehicle rules to be the best they can be and don't want anything distracting from that, but if Geir is confident they can deliver both, well, then, more is of course better!
 
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