Turret questions

[snrdg121408]

Hello all,

I'm starting a new topic thread for turrets rather than continue the discussion going on over at Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule at http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=122012.

Question 1. Can turrets use Armored Bulkheads, Radiation Shielding, and/or Hardened options from Spacecraft Options chapter?

Question 2. Can a weapon on a fixed mount be hardened?

Question 3. Can a pop-up fixed mount use the Armored Bulkhead option?

Adding new material

Question 4. Can the weapons with power requirements be hardened?

Question 5. If turrets can be hardened would the weapons be covered?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Question 1. Can turrets use Armored Bulkheads, Radiation Shielding, and/or Hardened options from Spacecraft Options chapter?

Yes.

Radiation Shielding protects the entire ship (or rather it's crew), not any specific system.

Question 2. Can a weapon on a fixed mount be hardened?

Yes, if it uses energy.

Question 3. Can a pop-up fixed mount use the Armored Bulkhead option?

Sure, why not?

Question 4. Can the weapons with power requirements be hardened?

Yes.

Question 5. If turrets can be hardened would the weapons be covered?

Not automatically, you must increase the cost of both to harden both.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi AnotherDilbert,

Question 1. Can turrets use Armored Bulkheads, Radiation Shielding, and/or Hardened options from Spacecraft Options chapter?

Yes.

Radiation Shielding protects the entire ship (or rather it's crew), not any specific system.

Oops, I am making an index of material I search for in my PDF books and I labeled the Space Station entry as Spacecraft Options.

Question 2. Can a weapon on a fixed mount be hardened?

Yes, if it uses energy.

Dang the web gremlins for stealing the text, I could have sworn I typed when using energy weapons.

Question 3. Can a pop-up fixed mount use the Armored Bulkhead option?

Sure, why not?

A fixed mount does not have any tonnage which in my opinion means it can not be armored. I just wanted to make sure that by adding the pop-up mount that the fixed mount could be armored.

Question 4. Can the weapons with power requirements be hardened?

Yes.

Man, I really asked a really obivious question that I already knew the answer for. Made I should have taken a nap.

Question 5. If turrets can be hardened would the weapons be covered?

Not automatically, you must increase the cost of both to harden both.

I was leaning towards both having to be hardened separately.

 

[Condottiere]

You harden the entire weapon system; whether individual weapon systems embedded in the same turret or fixed mount can be separately hardened or armoured, it's probably circumstantial, since these are usually designed as modular.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi Condottiere,

You harden the entire weapon system; whether individual weapon systems embedded in the same turret or fixed mount can be separately hardened or armoured, it's probably circumstantial, since these are usually designed as modular.

Yes, there are two modules (1) the turret and (2) one the five standard weapons systems or the four additional High Tech systems. The turret has both tonnage and power which allows it to, in my opinion, use armored bulkheads and be hardened. None of weapons on the table take up space which, again in my opinion cannot use the armored bulkhead option. Those weapons that have power requirements can be hardened, especially when they are in fixed mounts.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi all,

One the Implications of the Firmpoints to Turret Conversions the discussion changed to cover the missile and sand canister capacity carried in the turret.

MgT HG 2e p. 23/PDF 24

A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull.
Hardpoints Table: Fixed mount uses 1 Hardpoint and a turret uses 1 Hardpoint.

MgT HG 2e p. 24/PDF 25 Mount Table:
Fixed mount: TL -; Power 0; Tons 0; Cost MCr0.1
Single Turret: TL 7; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr0.2
Double Turret: TL 8; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr0.5
Triple Turret: TL 9; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr1

MgT HG 2e p. 67/PDF 68 High Technology
Quad Turret: TL 12; Power 2; Tons 1; Cost MCr2

MgT HG 2e p. 25/PDF 26 Turrets and Fixed Mounts provides the following descriptions:

"Missile Rack: Though missile racks require ammunition and the warheads take time to reach distant targets, they can be very powerful weapons and, when a range of warheads is available, is very versatile to. Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missiles on Firmpoints hold four missiles). The missile rack here is equipped with standard missiles."

Per MgT HG 2e p. 29/PDF 30 Missiles: "...Twelve missiles consume 1 ton."

"Sandcaster: Though mounted in turrets and of use against boarders, the sandcaster is primarily a defensive weapon used to protect ships from laser weapons. Each sand caster holds 12 sand canisters and cost Cr25000 to refill."

Per MgT HG 2e p. 31/PDF 32 Sandcasters: "...Twenty sand canisters consume 1 ton."

The question was asked on Implications of the Firmpoints to Turret Conversions:
Question 6. How can a 1 ton turret hold 1 ton of missiles?

One reply referenced CT LBB 2 1977/1981 p. 15 under Starship Construction Main Compartment:
"F. Armaments: Any ship may have one hardpoint per 100 tons of ship. Designation of a hardpoint requires no tonnage, and costs Cr 100,000. Hardpoints may be left unused if desired.
One turret may be attached to each hardpoint on the ship. When it is attached, one ton for fire control must be allocated."

CT LBB 5 HG there is no mention that a 1 ton listed for the turret in the Turret Weapons table is associated with fire control. In CT Striker Book 3 fire control is a separate item from the turret. In my PDF MT Referee's Manual my search for fire control returned three hits on p. 94/PDF 98 for the spinal mount. TNE FF&S points the designer to see the Fire Control Chapter, Section 14. T4 Core Rulebook p. 112/PDF 114 has a Fire Control Rating Table and there is no tonnage or cost requirement listed. T4 Book 2 has Master Fire Directors that per the table on p. 100/PDF 102 has a separate mass, volume, area, power, price and crew requirements from the weapon systems. T4 FF&S also have separate fire control systems.

MgT HG 2e p. 42/PDF 43 does mention a fire control computer and any other reference is associated with computer software. Looking at just the information from HG 2e I firmly believe that the turret requires 1 ton of space of the ship's hull. The missile racks have no tonnage requirements, however a full load of 12 missiles require 1 ton of space that supposedly fits inside the 1 ton turret.

At this time it appears that the 12 missiles of 20 canisters require 1 ton of space has been overlooked when loading the turret's magazine.

CT LBB 2 1977/1981has the following details
Weaponry pp. 16-17
Missile racks: are launchers for small anti-ship missiles. The typical missile is homing type which constantly seeks the target ship, ultimately being destroyed by the target’s defenses, or exploding and doing damage to it. Such missiles may also be converted to planetary surface bombs, or to surveillance drones (mechanical and electronic skill should apply in such cases. Individual missiles weigh about 50 kg, and cost Cr 5,000 each. [pp. 16-17]
Sandcasters: are defensive weapons; they dispense small particles which counteract the strength of lasers and protect the ship. The specific particles used are similar to ablat personnel armor replacement canisters of this special sand weigh 50 kg and cost Cr 400.

Starship Combat/Ordnance Launch: p. 30
Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple missile turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in immediate position. Such missiles are fully selectable by the gunner for type.

The CT LBB 2 turrets can only handle 3 missiles or canisters per missile launcher or sandcaster.

Then there is JTAS 21 with the Special Supplement 3 Missiles in Traveller that indicates that the turret appears to hold the three CT LBB 2 reloads plus an additional 12.

Going back the MgT HG 2e we know that 12 missiles and 20 canisters consume 1 ton of space.

Having a load out of 12 missiles requires 1 ton of space somewhere which means that a turret requires more than 1 ton of space when loaded with missiles or that the missiles are stowed in a separate 1 ton space. The space/magazine is basically a cargo hold so it would only require space without a monetary cost.

 

[paltrysum]

Regarding missile racks, the rack is said to hold 12 missiles. If you had a single turret, you could fire one missile per round for 12 rounds. If you have a triple missile turret, do you consume the loaded stock three times as fast? Or is the rack thought to carry 36 missiles instead of only 12? Seems to me it might be the former, since each rack requires no additional tonnage, but that does put pressure to assign more space for missile storage.

 

[Old School]

Regarding missile racks, the rack is said to hold 12 missiles. If you had a single turret, you could fire one missile per round for 12 rounds. If you have a triple missile turret, do you consume the loaded stock three times as fast? Or is the rack thought to carry 36 missiles instead of only 12? Seems to me it might be the former, since each rack requires no additional tonnage, but that does put pressure to assign more space for missile storage.

It's the former. No way to put 36 missiles in a one ton turret. Even just in storage that would take three displacement tons.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you have a triple missile turret, do you consume the loaded stock three times as fast? Or is the rack thought to carry 36 missiles instead of only 12?

The Core book says 12 missiles per turret (plus possibly 20 sand canisters).

HG says 12 missiles per missile rack, so a triple turret with three missile racks holds 36 missiles.

I use the HG rules, since I consider HG to supersede the Core book for ship design rules.

 

[Geir]

If you have a triple missile turret, do you consume the loaded stock three times as fast? Or is the rack thought to carry 36 missiles instead of only 12?

The Core book says 12 missiles per turret (plus possibly 20 sand canisters).

HG says 12 missiles per missile rack, so a triple turret with three missile racks holds 36 missiles.

I use the HG rules, since I consider HG to supersede the Core book for ship design rules.

I agree that's rules at written, but this is where I have to go with Rule 0 and invoke a bit of common sense. Since there is no Bag of Holding in Traveller, nor is a turret a Tardis, I have to assume you can only stuff so much in it. I accept that the turret itself extends beyond the hull, so there's a bit more space, but I can't see a turret holding more than a hold can, um... hold.

So 12 missiles or 20 sand total. If you have a triple missile turret, that's 12 missiles or 4 per launcher. Given that a 5 ton missile barrette only holds 25 missiles, it stands to reason that a turret can't hold more. If you have a mixed turret, then, you can hold an equivalent of missiles sand that adds up to 1 ton storage: 1/12 ton per missile, 1/20 ton per canister. But that's just me.

 

[Ursus Maior]

I agree that's rules at written, but this is where I have to go with Rule 0 and invoke a bit of common sense. Since there is no Bag of Holding in Traveller, nor is a turret a Tardis, I have to assume you can only stuff so much in it. I accept that the turret itself extends beyond the hull, so there's a bit more space, but I can't see a turret holding more than a hold can, um... hold.

So 12 missiles or 20 sand total. If you have a triple missile turret, that's 12 missiles or 4 per launcher. Given that a 5 ton missile barrette only holds 25 missiles, it stands to reason that a turret can't hold more. If you have a mixed turret, then, you can hold an equivalent of missiles sand that adds up to 1 ton storage: 1/12 ton per missile, 1/20 ton per canister. But that's just me.

I can see, where you come from. For me this creates all sorts of undesirable calculations and follow-up questions, e. g. who decides the ratio of sand canisters and missiles in triple or quadruple launchers? For missile racks, division by two, three or four is no problem, but sand casters in a quadruple turret with missile racks might lead to divisions by three, which leaves you at odds.

The other solution would be to argue that the initial load of missiles or canisters is preloaded into the starter similar to a (Sea)RAM starter. It is unlikely that the twelve missiles of a rack are stored within the turret anyways, since that would leave no place for the gunner, who does not have to take control from the bridge, but can in fact man the weapon from within itself. If missiles would need to go there and every missiles would be loaded into the rack separately, logically a triple missile rack should consume more internal space in a turret that a triple laser.

Of course that would mean that multi-turrets bristle with preloaded missiles and canisters. But they would still only fire one missile per round and rack or caster. This leaves a missile barbette superior to all launchers since it can fire up to five missiles in one salvo per round.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hi Ursus Maior,

I agree that's rules at written, but this is where I have to go with Rule 0 and invoke a bit of common sense. Since there is no Bag of Holding in Traveller, nor is a turret a Tardis, I have to assume you can only stuff so much in it. I accept that the turret itself extends beyond the hull, so there's a bit more space, but I can't see a turret holding more than a hold can, um... hold.

So 12 missiles or 20 sand total. If you have a triple missile turret, that's 12 missiles or 4 per launcher. Given that a 5 ton missile barrette only holds 25 missiles, it stands to reason that a turret can't hold more. If you have a mixed turret, then, you can hold an equivalent of missiles sand that adds up to 1 ton storage: 1/12 ton per missile, 1/20 ton per canister. But that's just me.

I can see, where you come from. For me this creates all sorts of undesirable calculations and follow-up questions, e. g. who decides the ratio of sand canisters and missiles in triple or quadruple launchers? For missile racks, division by two, three or four is no problem, but sand casters in a quadruple turret with missile racks might lead to divisions by three, which leaves you at odds.

The other solution would be to argue that the initial load of missiles or canisters is preloaded into the starter similar to a (Sea)RAM starter. It is unlikely that the twelve missiles of a rack are stored within the turret anyways, since that would leave no place for the gunner, who does not have to take control from the bridge, but can in fact man the weapon from within itself. If missiles would need to go there and every missiles would be loaded into the rack separately, logically a triple missile rack should consume more internal space in a turret that a triple laser.

CT LBB 2 stated that each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. A triple turret with three launchers has three canisters or missiles per launcher for a total of 9 rounds. My guess is that one canister/missile is on/in the launcher and the other in a magazine.

Of course that would mean that multi-turrets bristle with preloaded missiles and canisters. But they would still only fire one missile per round and rack or caster. This leaves a missile barbette superior to all launchers since it can fire up to five missiles in one salvo per round.

MgT HG 2e p.24/PDF 25: "If two or more weapons are of the same type they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice."

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I agree that's rules at written, but this is where I have to go with Rule 0 and invoke a bit of common sense. Since there is no Bag of Holding in Traveller, nor is a turret a Tardis, I have to assume you can only stuff so much in it. I accept that the turret itself extends beyond the hull, so there's a bit more space, but I can't see a turret holding more than a hold can, um... hold.

Sure, but once we have accepted that the turret contains 1 Dt of ammunition it has to be bigger than 1 Dt. If the turret is bigger than the 1 Dt socket, who knows how big it really is?

 

[Geir]

I agree that's rules at written, but this is where I have to go with Rule 0 and invoke a bit of common sense. Since there is no Bag of Holding in Traveller, nor is a turret a Tardis, I have to assume you can only stuff so much in it. I accept that the turret itself extends beyond the hull, so there's a bit more space, but I can't see a turret holding more than a hold can, um... hold.

Sure, but once we have accepted that the turret contains 1 Dt of ammunition it has to be bigger than 1 Dt. If the turret is bigger than the 1 Dt socket, who knows how big it really is?

Not bigger than the 5 dton barbette that only holds 25 missiles, I would surmise. But again, it's definitely a house rule thing. RAW say 36.

 

[Condottiere]

The one tonne turret is a legacy fixture; sort of strange that Vietnam War veterans wouldn't have pointed out the implausibility of stuffing that much munitions in a rather constrained volume.

And then you have fixed mounts, that have no volume allocation, and quadruple turrets, where you can try to stuff in even more weapons systems and munitions.

Logic says that for triple and quadruple turrets, munitions are going to be stored underneath in a ready magazine, which would need tonnage allocated to it.

Single and doubles probably have enough spare space to squeeze in a couple of munitions, but certainly not twelve missiles.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The one tonne turret is a legacy fixture; ...

Originally turrets took no space at all (inside the hull), but required 1 Dt fire control equipment per turret (LBB2, p15).

Despite taking no space at all, they still had space for weapons, ammunition, and a gunner.

 

[Condottiere]

I vaguely recall controlling the turret from the bridge, and sending someone up the hatch to get a bead on the target.

I noticed the problem, I believe, when I started trying to figure out how to sabot the missiles in sandcaster launchers, but that was years ago.

Also, fire control seems more a topic when, like hens, they started grouping them together into batteries; free range seems a rather recent development.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not bigger than the 5 dton barbette that only holds 25 missiles, I would surmise.

Agreed, the number of carried missiles are quite arbitrary. But if we start to fiddle with the turret system we really have to toss it entirely and start over.

E.g. turrets are clearly bigger than 1 Dt, but can still be retracted into the hull for 1 Dt extra (pop-up).


If turrets are really about 1 Dt, then hardpoint and firmpoints would carry the same number of missiles, and the total ammo load would have to be much less than 1 Dt (perhaps 1-2 missiles per rack? [or perhaps more in a single turret?]). But that would make missile and sandcaster turrets impractical unless they have dedicated magazines and hence not exchangeable with laser turrets.


I prefer not to touch that mess...

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello AnotherDilbert

The one tonne turret is a legacy fixture; ...

Originally turrets took no space at all (inside the hull), but required 1 Dt fire control equipment per turret (LBB2, p15).

Despite taking no space at all, they still had space for weapons, ammunition, and a gunner.

CT LBB 2 1977/1981 p. 23 the hardpoint has a cost of MCr0.1.

CT LBB 5 HG 2e does not mention anything about fire control that I have found and that the missile, lasers, and sandcaster turrets consume 1 ton per the turret weapons table.

In CT LBB2 1977/1981 p. 32 a turret has space for 3 missiles or canisters per launcher.
CT LBB 2 1977/1981 pp. 16-17: A single missile weighs about 50 kg at a cost of MCr0.05 and a canister weighs about 50 kg at a cost of MCr0.004.

The gunner in CT LBB 2 1977/1981 would probably have a 0.5 ton acceleration/gunnery couch installed which may or may not be part of the fire control equipment.

In MgT HG 2e the only fire control I found is the software on p. 63/PDF 64 and MgT CRB 2e p. 151/PDF 152. Turrets per the MgT HG 2e Turrets Table p. 24/PDF 25 and the quad turret on p. 67/68 consume 1 ton of internal space.

 

[Ursus Maior]

The one tonne turret is a legacy fixture; ...

Originally turrets took no space at all (inside the hull), but required 1 Dt fire control equipment per turret (LBB2, p15).

Despite taking no space at all, they still had space for weapons, ammunition, and a gunner.

This is where I come from. And that's why I think the twelve rounds per rack are supposed to be held in launch barrels. Much like SeaRAM and RAM hold 21 and 11 rounds initially.