Turret questions

It's three missiles per rack and an additional space for 12 within the 'turret' according to the best source for this, the CT Missiles special supplement.
MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional
missiles ready for future game turns.
The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim
and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are
exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new
missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these
missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere
in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase.
If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret
in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise
engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one
game turn.
Note that we are talking 50kg missiles here. Using the rules to be found in the LBB2 trade rules a ship ton is the equivalent of 1000kg, so you can carry 20 missiles per ton allocated to missile storage in the cargo hold or a dedicated magazine.
 
The missile rules have always been a bit... odd and not aligned with reality. In a warship missiles should be stored in the magazine, which is armored against damage and designed to explode outwards if hit so that it doesn't destroy or heavily damage the ship in case it is hit. Traveller doesn't even mention magazines or the need to have one to safely carry boom-booms in a combat ship. A freighter could get away without one, but not a military ship - especially DD's and on up.

Missiles also should be auto-loaded, not manual, during combat. Loading machinery and feed mechanisms take up space, but also they can have missile stored in the feeding mechanisms since the machinery already takes up space, so the number of ready missiles stored in the turret could include more than one - but only if tonnage is set aside for the machinery (and not at a 1-1 ratio either. There needs to be 'waste' space to account for the machinery).

There is some precedent, however, for small launchers to be manually reloaded, such as the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) which has all missiles at the ready (like a VLS), but reloads have to be manually replaced from cargo. RAM missiles are 85kg and based on the Sidewinder missile. Of course you would not be reloading a RAM unit during active combat while people are shooting at you. The original description from CT LBB about the gunner reloading the missile is almost like gunners reloading breech-style cannons.

At the time of Traveller being written, the Talos, Terrier and Tartar missiles were being replaced with the Standard missile, which matches the universalism of the Traveller missile.

It would be nice if some of these idiosyncrasies would get fixed one day and actually collated in a single edition. Not everyone buys and/or plays every version.
 
Time and space.

The space aspect is obvious.

With time, turns used to be twenty minutes, which is enough to get something like a torpedo into a tube, and get fired. Arguably, six minutes is enough.

Then Snoopy takes the controls.

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Ursus Maior said:
This is where I come from. And that's why I think the twelve rounds per rack are supposed to be held in launch barrels. Much like SeaRAM and RAM hold 21 and 11 rounds initially.

That looks like a turret, but why can we only launch one missile every ten minutes or so? If Traveller turrets looked like that they would work like missile packs from MgT1, and that would wreck the combat system.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
That looks like a turret, but why can we only launch one missile every ten minutes or so? If Traveller turrets looked like that they would work like missile packs from MgT1, and that would wreck the combat system.
Every six minutes. And if you get close enough, you can launch them every six seconds!
 
Hello phovac

phavoc said:
The missile rules have always been a bit... odd and not aligned with reality. In a warship missiles should be stored in the magazine, which is armored against damage and designed to explode outwards if hit so that it doesn't destroy or heavily damage the ship in case it is hit. Traveller doesn't even mention magazines or the need to have one to safely carry boom-booms in a combat ship. A freighter could get away without one, but not a military ship - especially DD's and on up.

Traveller has magazines for missiles.

CT LBB 5 HG 1979
Options and Other Possibilities p. 32 "Magazines: Any ship with missile racks installed in bays may allocate a magazine equal in tons to the points used in determining missile factor for bay or turret. The total of such points (unaveraged) is then available for planetary bombing factor. Planetary bombardment is not available to ships without magazines. Such magazines cost Cr 10,000 per ton."

CT LBB 5 HG 2e IIRC mentions planetary bombardment but I have not found the page.

JTAS 21 Special Supplement 3: Missiles in Traveller
Sigtrygg said:
It's three missiles per rack and an additional space for 12 within the 'turret' according to the best source for this, the CT Missiles special supplement.

MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.

MT Referee's Manual 6 - Weapons 4 Step 18 Magazine Requirements p. 74
Missiles have ammunition storage requirements. Volume required is indicated in the table below.

MISSILE STORAGE TABLE
Standard HE: Volume 0.1; Weight: 0.05; Price: 20,000
Nuclear: Volume 0.1; Weight: 0.07; Price: 150,000
Antimatter: Volume 0.1; Weight: 0.09; Price: 200,000

Each weapon in a turret holds one missile. 100-ton bays can hold 100 missiles; 50-ton bays can old 50 missiles.
The craft should have enough missiles for at least one round of fire from all missile batteries. One round of fire from a missile battery is called a battery-round.

Magazines: Additional missile storage can be allocated by designating otherwise empty bays. Missile storage should be allocated in battery-rounds. For example, the battery-round for one %launcher turret is 3 missiles; the battery-round for one missile bay is 2 missiles. A 100-ton bay used as an ammunition magazine can hold up to 13500 missiles.

The only mention of fire control is for spinal mounts in the Explanation of Damage results p. 94/PDF 98

TNE FF&S Mk I Mod 1 (January 19940 does mention magazines for TAC Missile Launchers p. 149. Space Missile Launchers p. 151 does not mention magazines.

T4 FF&S Space Missile Launchers p. 49
Launch Systems
A reloadable launch system requires a total volume (including the ready-fire missile) of twice the missile contained inside the launcher. The launcher masses 0.5 metric tons per cubic
meter of launcher and costs 700 credits per cubic meter.

The launcher can be reloaded in an hour by a crew of one. If an autoloader is provided, the launcher can be reloaded automatically after firing. The time required for the autoloader to reload the missile (in minutes) is equal to the missile mass in tons. Installing an autoloader doubles the mass, volume, and cost of the launcher.

A magazine must be provided for storage of missile reloads. The magazine requires a total volume (including the missile) of 150% of the volume of the missiles contained inside, at a mass of 0.25 metric tons per cubic meter and a cost of 100 credits per cubic meter. Missiles may also be stored as cargo, at 105% of the volume of the missile, but reloading requires two hours and a crew equal to half the missile's mass in tons.

Standard Space Launchers
Due to the available surface area, and allowing for the overhead of the turret itself, a standard three-ton socket turret holds five launch canisters, two reloadable launchers, or one launcher with an autoloader. A standard six-ton socket turret holds 10 launch canisters, five reloadable launchers, or two launchers with autoloaders. Magazines for additional missiles are provided within the ship's hull on military ships.

GT Starships p. 47
250mm Missile Racks
A slow autoloading launch tube, rated to fire 250mm, 700-pound, 6 cf (0.35 stons, 0.012 dtons) missiles. Missiles as light as 290 lbs. can be launched from the launcher. The system also includes a laser communicator used to control operator-guided missiles, plus magazine space for 70 missiles at TL7, 75 at TL8, 76 at TL9, and 77 at TL10+.

500mm Missile Racks/
EW Drone Launchers
A slow autoloading launch tube, rated to fire 500mm, 4,000-pound, 30 cf (2 stons, 0.06 dtons) missiles. Missiles as light as 2,000 lbs. can be launched from the launcher. The system also includes a laser communicator used to control operator-guided missiles, and magazine space for 10 missiles (8 at TL7).

T20 The Traveller's Handbook p. 270
Missile Magazine: A missile magazine is normally installed alongside the turret or bay mounting the weapon system itself, to reduce the distance the ordnance must travel. A magazine can hold up to 20 missiles (standard or nuclear), and is armored (AR1) in case of accidental detonation of the magazine by enemy fire. A ship may install as many missile magazines as needed and can be fit aboard.

I do not have T5.
 
Old School said:
AnotherDilbert said:
... every ten minutes or so?
Every six minutes.
Yes, in this edition. In other editions it has been 1000 s ≈ 17 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, and in T5 it is 20 minutes again.

The turrets are basically the same in all editions.



Old School said:
And if you get close enough, you can launch them every six seconds!
Quite, that is a severe problem for missiles.

The dogfighting system makes little sense, but it makes fighters work. Mongoose doesn't seem to be very bothered about detailed simulations; It's a game, roll some dice and have fun.
 
phavoc said:
[...] In a warship missiles should be stored in the magazine, which is armored against damage and designed to explode outwards if hit so that it doesn't destroy or heavily damage the ship in case it is hit. Traveller doesn't even mention magazines or the need to have one to safely carry boom-booms in a combat ship. [...]
Well, a magazine is a lot like a container with an armoured bulkhead. Certainly, there is more to it in reality, but gamewise that should suffice. Please, let's not go all Fire, Fusion and Steel here...

Missiles also should be auto-loaded, not manual, during combat. Loading machinery and feed mechanisms take up space, but also they can have missile stored in the feeding mechanisms since the machinery already takes up space, so the number of ready missiles stored in the turret could include more than one - but only if tonnage is set aside for the machinery [...].
I had similar concerns while constructing a small craft with a cockpit and a magazine yesterday. I solved it by adding the computer program "Virtual Crew/0" and thinking about adding either a Cargo Crane or a TL14 Astromech Roboter. The roboter would cost MCr8, the crance only MCr3, but the roboter could do a lot more, of course, and would make the Virtual Crew unnecessary. It's a bit of a messy solution, requiring the crane to be able to lift single missile rounds, but I could handwave that. On the other hand, Mongoose's HG2 makes it very clear that equipment is not taking up exactly the referred tonnage on the deck plan, but that some things go somewhere else and others are penetrating the hull and so don't go on the deckplan at all.

There is some precedent, however, for small launchers to be manually reloaded, such as the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) which has all missiles at the ready (like a VLS), but reloads have to be manually replaced from cargo. RAM missiles are 85kg and based on the Sidewinder missile. Of course you would not be reloading a RAM unit during active combat while people are shooting at you. The original description from CT LBB about the gunner reloading the missile is almost like gunners reloading breech-style cannons.
Well, Traveller missiles are around 50 kg, so a little lighter. But you would be under armour, which makes reloading under fire possible. And yes, there is some "breach loading" going on in the sense that a missile launcher essentially would be a miniature airlock. After all, the magazine is on the inside, but the target is on the outside. So at some point, the launcher arm or launch tube needs to open up at the pressured end, while being shut close at the evacuated end (aka 'space'), much like a submarine torpedo tube.
 
AnotherDilbert said:
Mongoose doesn't seem to be very bothered about detailed simulations; It's a game, roll some dice and have fun.

And that's a good thing at the gaming table. As a GM it makes preparation a bit harder sometimes, when parallel systems exist and those systems aren't fully explained or thought out.
 
I remember doing these calculations years ago.

If you take the Matryoshka concept of a launcher containing a smaller munition, that's not a problem.

Next issue is the size of the work station, which we usually assume is half a tonne, which is about six missiles squeezed together.
 
snrdg121408 said:
Hello phovac

Traveller has magazines for missiles.

<snip>

Thank you for the very detailed reply. But all those excellent references kind of proves my point. A magazine isn't just a hold, which all of the versions essentially reference. A magazine is a very specific dedicated space designed to add additional protection for explosive items (even nuclear warheads which shouldn't detonate on accident can be deadly to a crew with radioactives strewn throughout the inside of a hull). Then again Traveller doesn't really have that sort of concept either (a hit on a turret or a magazine/hold causing secondary sympathetic explosions). However, to your point, there are references to missile storage (and the 150% space requirement is on the mark, though maybe a tad high?).

The analogy of the torpedo reloading is probably more apt, though modern missile loading machinery is much more efficient. The difference is that the ROF for torpedoes is much different than missile targets. Still, its a good analogy.

There's really no need for a missile turret in Traveller since a turret launcher provides no additional speed to a launch. VLS tubes would be far more efficient to launch, but would also fire a LOT more missiles per turn, which would require the entire combat system to be re-done.
 
Hi phavoc,

phavoc said:
snrdg121408 said:
Hello phovac
<snip>

Thank you for the very detailed reply. But all those excellent references kind of proves my point. A magazine isn't just a hold, which all of the versions essentially reference. A magazine is a very specific dedicated space designed to add additional protection for explosive items (even nuclear warheads which shouldn't detonate on accident can be deadly to a crew with radioactives strewn throughout the inside of a hull). Then again Traveller doesn't really have that sort of concept either (a hit on a turret or a magazine/hold causing secondary sympathetic explosions). However, to your point, there are references to missile storage (and the 150% space requirement is on the mark, though maybe a tad high?).

Anything space designed to store something is a hold. Of course a hold can be and is often designed to store specific material. A missile magazine is a hold designed to store and hopefully contain the pressures generated when they warhead or other component explodes.

I do agree that Traveller and many other games have skipped the details of a difference between a general cargo hold and the specialized hold identified as a magazine.

In order to get a part needed for my boat I had to follow a supply clerk to a storage location that could only be accessed through the torpedo magazine. There was a lot of open space to move, assemble, and test the torpedo. Then there was the stowage racks that had enough space to move torpedoes.

The analogy of the torpedo reloading is probably more apt, though modern missile loading machinery is much more efficient. The difference is that the ROF for torpedoes is much different than missile targets. Still, its a good analogy.

On the four subs I served on there were two systems used to load and unload the torpedo tubes. One was by using block and tackle as seen in many WW II submarine movies. The other by using mechanical and hydraulics to do the work. To be honest the only missile launching systems are like the RIM-2 Terrier.

There's really no need for a missile turret in Traveller since a turret launcher provides no additional speed to a launch. VLS tubes would be far more efficient to launch, but would also fire a LOT more missiles per turn, which would require the entire combat system to be re-done.

In my opinion Traveller missile bays a similar to VLS, the difference is that in most Traveller versions the bays have internal magazines that automatically reload the bay. In VLS once you launch them all the ship has to reload them manually.
 
snrdg121408 said:
Anything space designed to store something is a hold. Of course a hold can be and is often designed to store specific material. A missile magazine is a hold designed to store and hopefully contain the pressures generated when they warhead or other component explodes.

I do agree that Traveller and many other games have skipped the details of a difference between a general cargo hold and the specialized hold identified as a magazine.

In order to get a part needed for my boat I had to follow a supply clerk to a storage location that could only be accessed through the torpedo magazine. There was a lot of open space to move, assemble, and test the torpedo. Then there was the stowage racks that had enough space to move torpedoes.

There's a difference between a hold and a magazine, just like there's a difference between a storage building and an ammo bunker. And your definition of a magazine is spot on (and also lacking from just about every published design).

It's always been a pet peeve of mine when I see deckplans and there is a triple missile turret in the space above a corridor with a note in the design that states the ship is carrying 40 spare missiles (somewhere in the sometimes also mythical cargo storage area). Magazines do need to be located next to the launcher, and for a warship those turrets should have auto-loading machinery to take the crewman out of the process. Civilian ships are free to do whatever.


snrdg121408 said:
On the four subs I served on there were two systems used to load and unload the torpedo tubes. One was by using block and tackle as seen in many WW II submarine movies. The other by using mechanical and hydraulics to do the work. To be honest the only missile launching systems are like the RIM-2 Terrier. [/snip]

Yes, the Talos/Terrier/Tartar missile launchers used launch rails. The OHP single-arm launcher was pretty cool itself, with a rotating magazine much like a revolver that would spin to load the appropriate missile. In the Army the MLRS/TACCMS missile system is 99% hydraulically loaded, but 1% manual due to the nature. Manual loading actually has a lot of advantages if you don't have a perfect environment all the time - which on the battlefield you rarely don't. But whenever possible it's preferable to mechanize it.


snrdg121408 said:
In my opinion Traveller missile bays a similar to VLS, the difference is that in most Traveller versions the bays have internal magazines that automatically reload the bay. In VLS once you launch them all the ship has to reload them manually.

I suppose that's a fair point of view, it's probably a melding of both the idea of VLS and launch rails, since a true VLS would allow for a far faster rate of fire than what bays offer. Bays have always seemed a bit of an anomaly to me. I understand the reason - much like all the early charts being 6 x 6 to match die rolls - but their ROF was stiffiled to keep missile combat limited. Again understandable, as starship combat has always been shoehorned into an RPG game rather than being designed from the ground up as starship combat. There are other gaming systems that have superior ship-to-ship combat rules. Which is expected.
 
Hello phavoc

phavoc said:
snrdg121408 said:
Anything space designed to store something is a hold. Of course a hold can be and is often designed to store specific material. A missile magazine is a hold designed to store and hopefully contain the pressures generated when they warhead or other component explodes.

I do agree that Traveller and many other games have skipped the details of a difference between a general cargo hold and the specialized hold identified as a magazine.

In order to get a part needed for my boat I had to follow a supply clerk to a storage location that could only be accessed through the torpedo magazine. There was a lot of open space to move, assemble, and test the torpedo. Then there was the stowage racks that had enough space to move torpedoes.

There's a difference between a hold and a magazine, just like there's a difference between a storage building and an ammo bunker. And your definition of a magazine is spot on (and also lacking from just about every published design).

It's always been a pet peeve of mine when I see deckplans and there is a triple missile turret in the space above a corridor with a note in the design that states the ship is carrying 40 spare missiles (somewhere in the sometimes also mythical cargo storage area). Magazines do need to be located next to the launcher, and for a warship those turrets should have auto-loading machinery to take the crewman out of the process. Civilian ships are free to do whatever.

The difference between a standard cargo hold on ship and a magazine is that a standard hold is not designed to contain or direct the resulting explosion which usually means that the ship is blown apart. An ammo bunker is a reinforced storage building.

We have at least one pet peeve in common. CT Supplement 7's TL 12 400-ton System Defense Boat Interior Details on p. 35 and the deck plan on p. 36 is the only design that I can recall showing a missile magazine.

I'm back and my neighbor has gone home to make sure everyone is okay at home. While the wee lad was here thought about additional information.

The deck plan has two what I count as 16 ton missile magazines. On CT Supplement 7 p. 47 the missile USP is 3 which indicates a total of 6 missile racks which would be 2 triple turrets. CT LBB 5 1979 p. 32 states that missile bays may allocate a magazine in tons equal to the points used to determine the missile factor for a bay or turret. My guess is that the designer extended the magazine to include turrets and that one turret magazine is 6 tons. I still have not figured out how many missiles are carried.

snrdg121408 said:
On the four subs I served on there were two systems used to load and unload the torpedo tubes. One was by using block and tackle as seen in many WW II submarine movies. The other by using mechanical and hydraulics to do the work. To be honest the only missile launching systems are like the RIM-2 Terrier. [/snip]

Yes, the Talos/Terrier/Tartar missile launchers used launch rails. The OHP single-arm launcher was pretty cool itself, with a rotating magazine much like a revolver that would spin to load the appropriate missile. In the Army the MLRS/TACCMS missile system is 99% hydraulically loaded, but 1% manual due to the nature. Manual loading actually has a lot of advantages if you don't have a perfect environment all the time - which on the battlefield you rarely don't. But whenever possible it's preferable to mechanize it.

The modern 5-inch gun turrets, as mentioned earlier in the thread, has a turret ready magazine that has an auto-loader, but once the ready magazine is empty the gun's crew below the turret has to manually reload the magazine.

snrdg121408 said:
In my opinion Traveller missile bays are similar to VLS, the difference is that in most Traveller versions the bays have internal magazines that automatically reload the bay. In VLS once you launch them all the ship has to reload them manually.

I suppose that's a fair point of view, it's probably a melding of both the idea of VLS and launch rails, since a true VLS would allow for a far faster rate of fire than what bays offer. Bays have always seemed a bit of an anomaly to me. I understand the reason - much like all the early charts being 6 x 6 to match die rolls - but their ROF was stiffiled to keep missile combat limited. Again understandable, as starship combat has always been shoehorned into an RPG game rather than being designed from the ground up as starship combat. There are other gaming systems that have superior ship-to-ship combat rules. Which is expected.

I have to take a break my 4-year old neighbor has arrived to play some games.

I'm back and I have to slightly disagree considering that in CT LBB 2 space combat is a modified version of miniature table top war gaming. CT LBB 5 has two combat ranges of short and long and in CT LBB 5 HG 2e there was not accounting of how many missiles or canisters had been expended during combat. MgT, in my opinion, expanded the CT LBB 5 abstract combat system.
 
It's over simplified, and no one appears to think it's worth the effort to try and explain it.

All we can do is try and rationalize it as described in the books.
 
Hello Condottiere,

Condottiere said:
It's over simplified, and no one appears to think it's worth the effort to try and explain it.

I think that it is worth the effort to explain how a turret that consumes 1 ton of internal volume is able to house one to three (four using the quad option) weapons, hold 1 ton of missiles or 0.6 tons of sand canisters, the reloading system, fire control equipment, and space for a gunner. Unfortunately, my attempts to explain material like the pop-up turret and mobile turrets on the CT X-Boat Tender is met with resistance resulting in my giving up.

All we can do is try and rationalize it as described in the books.

In my opinion MgT HG 2e does not have describe a whole lot when it comes to missile and sandcaster turrets.

Looking through MgT HG 2e Chapter Two here is what I can determine about a missile and sandcaster turrets.

Chapter 2 Weapons & Screens
1. Number of Weapons p. 23/PDF 24: Turrets require 1 hardpoint.
2. Turrets & Screens p. 24/PDF 25: Mount Table: Turrets consume 1 ton of internal volume.
3. Turrets & Screens p. 24/PDF 25: One gunner is required to operate a turret.
4. Turrets & Screens p. 24/PDF 25 Illustration: The illustration at the bottom of the right side column shows the weapon housing (a.k.a. turret) as dome shaped with what appears to be the rotation ring at the bottom. Approximately in the center of the single turret is a tube/cylinder leading down to what appears to be an iris valve hatch.
5. Turrets & Screens p. 25/PDF 26: Each missile rack in a turret has 12 ready missiles and each sandcaster in a turret has 12 ready canisters.
6. Turrets & Screens p. 29/PDF 30: 12 missiles consume 1 ton of internal volume.
7. Turrets & Screens p. 31/PDF 32: 20 sand canisters consume 1 ton of internal volume.

From the available information a turret has an access corridor requiring 1 ton of internal space. A missile turret has at least 1 to 3 tons of volume to accommodate 12 to 36 missiles and the loading equipment. A gunner requires an unknown amount of volume, which could be a 0.5 ton acceleration seat or possibly 1 ton of equipment as derived for the additional sensor operators/gunners in a dual cockpit or the 1 ton requirement for a bridge sensor station.

Update: A sandcaster turret would use 0.6 to 1.8 tons of the turret volume for reloads.
 
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