Turning the world on it's ear

[Yrtalien]

So, recently I tried to run a game that began with the Vorlons as the bad guys and the Shadows as the good guys. If you read my previous post you know how well that worked out. What I'm wondering now is how many of you have tried flipping the coin on player perceptions with other races or groups and how did you go about it.

For example: Have any of you tried presenting the Psi Corp as a good thing.

The Centauri as justified, or nice, or anything other than selfish snobs.

The Narn as peaceful people (before G'kar has an impact).

The Pak'Mara as fresh smelling etc etc

 

[cthol24601]

Actually one of the cool things about B5 is that kind of turning the world on its ear is quite legit. ie I could see many cases where the Psi-Corp and Bester would save people from evil telepaths abusing their power (aka like a psyker in 40k style aggression) The vorlons callously destryoing civilizations on a whim etc. The series is replete with decent Centauri, gentle Narn etc who are outside the racial or institutional stereotypes. If you think about it from a professional stand point Sheriden and Ivanova etc and the B5 crew are a bunch of nepotists who constantly break rules to suit the interests of people in their clique at the expense of others. When Garibaldi turns against Sheriden he does have a point about the messianic dangers of his role and the cabalistic way they go about their plans to change the galaxy. They are also on occasion very very ruthless to their enemies.

So I think this sort of thing could be a normal part of role playing and consistent with the series. Its just a matter of perspective.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Early on in the TV series JMS stated that the whole Vorlon-Shadow thing was NOT good vs evil.

What you are trying to do is perfectly within the spirit of what JMS tried to do. NOTHING is black and white and evil doesn't see itself as evil in the mirror.

 

[Kizarvexis]

I don't know how you go about changing peoples perceptions, but here is what jms had to say about S1 "Signs and Portents".

One lovely thing about "Signs and Portents," which you picked up on, is something I like to play with; implying one thing while saying the opposite. Look at all the shadow's main representative, Morden, does: he asks people what they want; he gets tossed out of Delenn's quarters; he is pleasant in his demeanor at all times, never yells, always smiles, and is courteous; he takes an action which saves one of our main characters, Londo, from disgrace and resignation, and helps in the process of scragging the bad guys in the episode.
And yet everyone walks away thinking that the shadows are bad. Which was of course the intent...by the way in which they did "good."

Kosh prevents humanity from achieving immortality, scares the hell out of Talia (cf. "Deathwalker",) never gives anyone a straight answer, doesn't seem to mind it if people fear him...and we walk away with the presumption that he is good, by virtue of the way in which he did things that were "bad."

[...] This is something I do a lot in my scripts, which I don't generally see a lot of other people doing. You *really* have to construct the script very carefully to pull something like this off...a little game between me and the audience.


Kizarvexis

 

[Valarian]

I see the conflict between the Vorlons and the Shadows as more of an Order vs. Chaos thing rather than Good vs. Evil. If the Vorlons win, there will be complete stasis and enforced order. If the Shadows win, there will be complete chaos and anarchy. Both races perform acts that can be viewed as good or evil. The early part of Season 4 bears this out, when both the Shadows and Vorlons are busy destroying whole worlds. There's also a difference between Kosh and Ulkesh/2nd Kosh. Which Vorlon is more representative? Lyta certainly is treated more harshly by Ulkesh/2nd Kosh.

Shadow philosophy: Justin's speech in Zha'ha'dum
Vorlon philosophy: Hints throughout the seasons. "Come the Inquisitor" gives some insight to what the Vorlons want.

The questions:
Shadows: "What do you want?"
Vorlons: "Who are you?"
Lorien: "Where are you going?"
Technomages: "Whom do you serve?"

 

[lastbesthope]

Technomages: "Whom do you serve?"

"And who do you trust?"

LBH

 

[Kizarvexis]

I see the conflict between the Vorlons and the Shadows as more of an Order vs. Chaos thing rather than Good vs. Evil. If the Vorlons win, there will be complete stasis and enforced order. If the Shadows win, there will be complete chaos and anarchy. Both races perform acts that can be viewed as good or evil. The early part of Season 4 bears this out, when both the Shadows and Vorlons are busy destroying whole worlds. There's also a difference between Kosh and Ulkesh/2nd Kosh. Which Vorlon is more representative? Lyta certainly is treated more harshly by Ulkesh/2nd Kosh.

Shadow philosophy: Justin's speech in Zha'ha'dum
Vorlon philosophy: Hints throughout the seasons. "Come the Inquisitor" gives some insight to what the Vorlons want.

The questions:
Shadows: "What do you want?"
Vorlons: "Who are you?"
Lorien: "Where are you going?"
Technomages: "Whom do you serve?"

Yep, the Vorlons represented order and the Shadows represented chaos. Each was to guide the younger races and they only wanted the younger races to follow their own philosophy.

Here is what jms said about Kosh and Ulkesh. I don't think it directly answers your question, but may point to the answer.

The new Vorlon was Ulkesh, yes...the Kosh thing was meant in a
Vorlon philosophical sense. They ain't wired up like the rest of us.
---
Kosh Naranek and Ulkesh Naranek; Naranek is a
title/designation.
---
> Since Kosh and Ulkesh seem to have the authority to dictate
> Vorlon policy from what you've said, can we assume that they were
> near the top of the Vorlon heirarchy (whatever THAT may be)?

It's not a hierarchy as you or I would understand it...and the
weird thing is, though I kinda know how it functions, I'll be damned if
I can figure out how to explain it in words.
---
And yes, Kosh and Ulkesh were contemporaries, though Ulkesh was
the more military of the two, very isolationist, while Kosh was the
curious one, interested in the younger races, and more willing to
extend himself (with sometimes unfortunate results). Kosh always
worried what Ulkesh would do without his moderating presence...and
ultimately had to be the one to take him down to allow the younger
races to step forward.
---
No, I wouldn't call them friends. They had a certain respect
for one another, but Ulkesh always thought Kosh was soft, and Kosh
always worried that Ulkesh was dangerous. In their own ways, both were
right.
---
Thanks...and it wasn't so much a case of Ulkesh turning against the effort, but finally hitting the end of his patience with the humans, and his predecessor's decision to let the "natives" get out of control.
---

Kizarvexis

 

[Mage]

Well, I can some up the whole shadow/light order/chaos good/evil shadow/vorlon thing as being perspective.

As Ivanova put it, there are three types of lies:
Lies
Damn Lies
And Half truths

And as Kosh says, truth is a three edged sword, explained by Sheridan as:
Your Truth
Our Truth
And the real truth

Now get the hell out of our galaxy.

 

[Valarian]

Have any of you tried presenting the Psi Corp as a good thing.

You could play a Psi Corp campaign, with the players starting as newly trained teeps. In the corporate area of Psi Corps, they may not get much of a hint as to what lies beneath the veil.

Even as junior Psi Cops, they won't be let in on the secrets in the Corps straight away. You could make their first rogues real nasty pieces of work. Drop hints later that they were, in fact, escaped experiments driven mad by the Corps. Put in a few less violent rogues, then let the players see the re-education camps they've been sending these people to. Let them see what sleepers do. Gradually introduce what Psi Corps is doing, and the connections to the Shadows.

By the time your players have reached Season 5, they're either going to be Bester junior or be signing up with Byron.

Maternis, Paternis
The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father