dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
Greetings. Please stick around after this topic is settled to discuss more Traveller topics.Benzaiten26 said:
Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
Some interesting suggestions here, my 2Cr are
1. Weapon specialisations, the current slug pistols/slug rifles/energy pistol/energy rifle/shotgun seems better than the OP suggestion. I fall into the school of thought that a good rifle shot can shoot a SMG or a PDW just as well, and use a LMG with the same level of skill. Carbines are just short rifles. Pistol shooting, using one hand rather than two, and shotguns, are a bit different, so deserve different skills. Call it one handed slug and two handed slug or short arm or long arm if you like.
2. One of the posts above mentioned HMGs, 50 cals, and suggested that they need a different skill from a hunting rifle. Agreed, I could see a case for large tripod mounted slug throwers having a different skill specialisation, and being included in support weapons as a "large slug thrower" speciality. In some case, eg GPMGs, the weapon could be used as a LMG, using slug rifle skill, but if put on a tripod would use the heavy weapon specialism, but with a longer range table. Though some may ask if this is a needless complication, I could see its relevance to military and merc based games.
3. The suggestions for AP rules look more straight forward. Dropping SAP seems a good idea as well, in fact, might well introduce that straight away.
4. The super destructive weapons changes for very powerful weapons make sense as well, sometimes the increased armour points of larger, but still quite small, vehicles can lead to some unintended consequences, making them too strong. For sometime now we have got round that by allowing any penetrating hit from a larger weapon to inflict twice the amount of damage which gets through the armour, and to deduct all that damage from hull, and then structure, before calculating the number of "special" hits, as usual.
5. Ranges of small arms. I feel this should be revisited, especially for SMG/PDAs, these are not assault weapons, and the limited nature of their rounds leads to a much more limited performance.
Egil
1. Weapon specialisations, the current slug pistols/slug rifles/energy pistol/energy rifle/shotgun seems better than the OP suggestion. I fall into the school of thought that a good rifle shot can shoot a SMG or a PDW just as well, and use a LMG with the same level of skill. Carbines are just short rifles. Pistol shooting, using one hand rather than two, and shotguns, are a bit different, so deserve different skills. Call it one handed slug and two handed slug or short arm or long arm if you like.
2. One of the posts above mentioned HMGs, 50 cals, and suggested that they need a different skill from a hunting rifle. Agreed, I could see a case for large tripod mounted slug throwers having a different skill specialisation, and being included in support weapons as a "large slug thrower" speciality. In some case, eg GPMGs, the weapon could be used as a LMG, using slug rifle skill, but if put on a tripod would use the heavy weapon specialism, but with a longer range table. Though some may ask if this is a needless complication, I could see its relevance to military and merc based games.
3. The suggestions for AP rules look more straight forward. Dropping SAP seems a good idea as well, in fact, might well introduce that straight away.
4. The super destructive weapons changes for very powerful weapons make sense as well, sometimes the increased armour points of larger, but still quite small, vehicles can lead to some unintended consequences, making them too strong. For sometime now we have got round that by allowing any penetrating hit from a larger weapon to inflict twice the amount of damage which gets through the armour, and to deduct all that damage from hull, and then structure, before calculating the number of "special" hits, as usual.
5. Ranges of small arms. I feel this should be revisited, especially for SMG/PDAs, these are not assault weapons, and the limited nature of their rounds leads to a much more limited performance.
Egil
Egil Skallagrimsson
Mongoose
More of a query, really, for some reason I can't see the notes columns from the Revised Shooting Weapons Document, which might explain this. Gauss rifles seem to have lost the AP capacity, while Heavy ACRs have gained it. Presumably the other way round would make sense.
Egil
Egil
DickTurpin
Banded Mongoose
Benzaiten26 said:
The differences between changing clips in a slug thrower and changing the battery in an energy weapon are trivial. There is already a recoil entry for each weapon so that is a non-issue. Zero-G differences should be handled by the Zero-G skill, not the weapon skill. The only time a weapon skill is used (i.e. it modifies a dice roll) is when actually firing the weapon. So yes, I believe how the weapon is actually used is much more important that what form of energy it uses to damage the target.
CosmicGamer
Mongoose
only?DickTurpin said:
How about Weapon Skill + (Int) for identifying alien weapons function and capabilities.
I might use a weapon skill for a character to notice something about a weapon, for example is the safety on or off.
I might allow a weapon skill to be used instead of recon or inspect to see if a character notices the bulk of a concealed weapon.
Agreed. Pairings of different skills and different stats are a basis of Traveller.
I've seen quite a list of possible uses for the skill:
Gun Combat + EDU to identify a specific pattern of weapon or manufacturer
Gun Combat + INT to figure out how to use an awkward or obscure design of weapon (especially if designed for alien ergonomics)
Gun Combat + STR for aiming something that requires brute force to aim rather than precision (like low TL artillery)
hell,
Gun Combat +SOC to comport yourself properly at a Game Shoot.
I've seen quite a list of possible uses for the skill:
Gun Combat + EDU to identify a specific pattern of weapon or manufacturer
Gun Combat + INT to figure out how to use an awkward or obscure design of weapon (especially if designed for alien ergonomics)
Gun Combat + STR for aiming something that requires brute force to aim rather than precision (like low TL artillery)
hell,
Gun Combat +SOC to comport yourself properly at a Game Shoot.
Benzaiten26
Mongoose
HERE ARE THE REASONS THE LONGARM/SHORTARMS SKILL SPECIALIZATIONS WON"T WORK:
In these opinions a number of assumptions are being made:
1) The shooter is human. I don't envision a hiver pressing his cheek against the stock. Do they have cheeks? Are they in the same place? Traveller encompasses many races with many very, different physiologies and the skill system has to be able to cover them all. What is the difference between a hiver pistol and rifle?
2) Weapons technology will continue to progress along the same rifle/pistol technologies we have today. WIth laser weapons lacking a recoil a laser pistol could easy be mounted on the head or on a hat like the LED flashlights we have today and fired via "bluetooth". (Let me know if you want to try that with even a 9mm...I'd like to watch) or because of the lack of recoil a laser weapon braced against the sterum instead of the shoulder and held in place with one, two or both hands, looking down into the sights that use the laser weapons own optics for targeting. How about a weapon that has a pistol grip and trigger, but the weapon itself is carried on the bottom side of the forearm? Is that a pistol or rifle? What exactly is the dividing line between a pistol and rifle? Even this definition has changed greatly over time. Even among humans, I'm guessing that a cybernetic slug pistol would be fired a bit differently from a standard slug pistol.
3) The weapon will be fired in a 1 or 0 G environment and/or in either air or vacuum. Normally, a heavier weapon that would require two hands to hold and stabilize in a 1G environment, may only need one hand in say the gravity of the moon, at least until the trigger is pulled. And, a slug weapon fired under water or in a heavier fluid environment, well, recoil wouldn't be any where near as much a problem.
4) Weapons won't be repaired or modified from their factory specifications. Player A takes a standard shotgun (rifle) and saws off the barrel, then replaces the stock with a pistol grip. How do I know he'll do it? Because it's what I'd do. We've all seen weapons with foldable stocks and pistols modified by having stocks put on. Now where do these weapons fit? Into rifles or pistols?
5) That all range weapons will have barrels. What of a sonic/sound based weapon that simply has a speaker on it as the focusing mechanism. How do we know that a Neural weapon has a barrel at all and not just an "emission plate" that directs its energy?
For all these reasons I BEG YOU not to go with the longarm/shortarm specializations under gun combat.
Please, go with the weapon mechanisms as the specializations instead:
laser weapons / slug weapons / gauss weapons / neural weapons / etc.
Separation by Civilian/Military specializations would be purely arbitrary and with vastly different law levels from system to system would be very confusing.
Separation by pistol/rifle specializations again purely arbitrary and because of blurred lines always arguable.
Separation by weapon mechanisms ... defined by physics. Now that's something I can work with. Besides, Traveller is/has been a hard science fiction setting.
BTW guys thanks for making me feel welcome and reading my posts. I hope I'm posting good arguments in a positive and productive manor. By this time on most other sites a discussion like this would've degenerated into name calling and swearing. You're making strides in restoring my faith in humanity.
In these opinions a number of assumptions are being made:
1) The shooter is human. I don't envision a hiver pressing his cheek against the stock. Do they have cheeks? Are they in the same place? Traveller encompasses many races with many very, different physiologies and the skill system has to be able to cover them all. What is the difference between a hiver pistol and rifle?
2) Weapons technology will continue to progress along the same rifle/pistol technologies we have today. WIth laser weapons lacking a recoil a laser pistol could easy be mounted on the head or on a hat like the LED flashlights we have today and fired via "bluetooth". (Let me know if you want to try that with even a 9mm...I'd like to watch) or because of the lack of recoil a laser weapon braced against the sterum instead of the shoulder and held in place with one, two or both hands, looking down into the sights that use the laser weapons own optics for targeting. How about a weapon that has a pistol grip and trigger, but the weapon itself is carried on the bottom side of the forearm? Is that a pistol or rifle? What exactly is the dividing line between a pistol and rifle? Even this definition has changed greatly over time. Even among humans, I'm guessing that a cybernetic slug pistol would be fired a bit differently from a standard slug pistol.
3) The weapon will be fired in a 1 or 0 G environment and/or in either air or vacuum. Normally, a heavier weapon that would require two hands to hold and stabilize in a 1G environment, may only need one hand in say the gravity of the moon, at least until the trigger is pulled. And, a slug weapon fired under water or in a heavier fluid environment, well, recoil wouldn't be any where near as much a problem.
4) Weapons won't be repaired or modified from their factory specifications. Player A takes a standard shotgun (rifle) and saws off the barrel, then replaces the stock with a pistol grip. How do I know he'll do it? Because it's what I'd do. We've all seen weapons with foldable stocks and pistols modified by having stocks put on. Now where do these weapons fit? Into rifles or pistols?
5) That all range weapons will have barrels. What of a sonic/sound based weapon that simply has a speaker on it as the focusing mechanism. How do we know that a Neural weapon has a barrel at all and not just an "emission plate" that directs its energy?
For all these reasons I BEG YOU not to go with the longarm/shortarm specializations under gun combat.
Please, go with the weapon mechanisms as the specializations instead:
laser weapons / slug weapons / gauss weapons / neural weapons / etc.
Separation by Civilian/Military specializations would be purely arbitrary and with vastly different law levels from system to system would be very confusing.
Separation by pistol/rifle specializations again purely arbitrary and because of blurred lines always arguable.
Separation by weapon mechanisms ... defined by physics. Now that's something I can work with. Besides, Traveller is/has been a hard science fiction setting.
BTW guys thanks for making me feel welcome and reading my posts. I hope I'm posting good arguments in a positive and productive manor. By this time on most other sites a discussion like this would've degenerated into name calling and swearing. You're making strides in restoring my faith in humanity.
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
We're restoring your faith in humanity? That may be the first time someone said that about the Traveller community. *just teasing*
Seriously though, I noticed now everyone is making arguments on topics without devolving into name calling and I thought that this is a nice break from a certain system that I am taking a break from (that shall remain nameless). I was going to say something before, but I was afraid I would jinx it.
Seriously though, I noticed now everyone is making arguments on topics without devolving into name calling and I thought that this is a nice break from a certain system that I am taking a break from (that shall remain nameless). I was going to say something before, but I was afraid I would jinx it.
dragoner said:
That's why I keep harping on the specialty "Ranged/Support" weapons - it's everything from MGs to flamethrowers to rocket launchers. All heavy weapons, and if you wanted to include vehicle mounted that's fine.
I still don't think there should be any reason to have energy weapons and slugthrowing weapons differentiated. I'd be more interested in keeping handguns and rifles (smallarms and longarms) separated.
My honest comment?
I like the existing system because it is simple, and guns are already quite powerful enough.
Don't make the mistake of trying to turn the game into a 'realistic' combat simulation. It never will be, and if it was characters wouldn't last 2 seconds.
I hate the mods.
However, rationalising the skill categories is fine: I suspect many refs already do this anyway.
Over complication slows the game down, and is, in the end, pointless.
I like the existing system because it is simple, and guns are already quite powerful enough.
Don't make the mistake of trying to turn the game into a 'realistic' combat simulation. It never will be, and if it was characters wouldn't last 2 seconds.
I hate the mods.
However, rationalising the skill categories is fine: I suspect many refs already do this anyway.
Over complication slows the game down, and is, in the end, pointless.
Rick
Mongoose
A lot of posts on this topic seem to be after a similar simple form - my 2p worth: 'Gun Combat' and 'Heavy Weapon Combat' and let the characters further specialise into "Laser Shortarm", "Gauss Longarm" etc. if they wish to.
And any character calling a firearms search a "Short-Arm Inspection" will be shot out of hand!! :twisted:
And any character calling a firearms search a "Short-Arm Inspection" will be shot out of hand!! :twisted:
