Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments

[Balfuset790]

Slug/Energy equally here too. They seem to be the most disparate groups (from someone who's never fired anything more then an air rifle) to warrant different specialisation.

Recoil vs. dispersion, for example.

 

[phavoc]

Slug / Energy is the best of the three.

But where is the dividing line? If you know slug does that mean you know pistol/rifle/smg/guass/machinegun/VRF gauss gun?

 

[phavoc]

I'm waiting for someone to explain to me how the skills needed to operate a pistol and a rifle are so different as to warrant separate specializations.

Whereas, in Engineering the specializations are hugely different. Power plant, Electronics, Maneuver Drive and Jump Drive. Power plant, for example, I assume would cover fusion plants, fission plants, solar power collectors, internal combustion and batteries, to name a few.

With this same logic Slug Weapons under Gun Combat should include all rifles, pistols, SMGs, shotguns, assault rifles etc. that fire slugs using the same mechanism.

Laser Weapons should include all weapons (pistols, rifles, etc) that include the same systems as well.

What you're almost inferring here is the introduction of SUB-SPECIALIZATIONS, something this game system and its character generation couldn't encompass.

Players trying to overspecialize in Gun Combat would be defeated, first of all by a great game system and character generation system, that like real life, often leads to characters very different from the life path they intended. Secondly, I like players that try to over specialize in combat skills and leave themselves so disparate in every other area, like piloting or comms. One situation in which the player finds his character the only person left to fly the landing craft and dying in the crash because of the -3 untrained die modifier, and he'll be sure to spread his skill points around more liberally next time (in spite of my warnings, this actually happened BTW).

The issue, in reality, is pretty basic. Once you've mastered weapons it allows you to pick up a weapon or rifle and use it (reload, aim, etc). The difference is that using and being accurate are two different things. You can use it, but you won't be super-accurate. For example, you can learn how to fire a rifle and hit a target at say 50yrs. But without practice and skill you will be highly unlikely to hit a target at say 200yds or greater. And knowing how to fire a pistol vs. a rifle are also two different things. It would be equivalent of asking someone who has a license to drive a car to drive a semi-truck and trailer with the same skill level.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Driving a car and a large truck are both covered by drive (wheeled) are they not? I see no reason it couldn't work for guns too - otherwise lots of skills need more sub-skills

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

NOT a gun person, but...

Wouldn't the energy weapons be DESIGNED to operate like the slug weapon equivalents?

The first Laser Rifles are going to have triggers (or something VERY close to it) not because they NEED a moving trigger but because that is what everyone is familiar with.

Given a TL-10+ society, the differences between Slug and Energy from an OPERATOR point of view, might be trivial. RECOIL between weapons will be more important than what comes out the pointy end.

I would lean towards Longarm/Shortarm

Civilian/Military is WAY to confusing and as has been mentioned before would start lawyers fighting at different Law Levels.

 

[Jame Rowe]

NOT a gun person, but...

Wouldn't the energy weapons be DESIGNED to operate like the slug weapon equivalents?

The first Laser Rifles are going to have triggers (or something VERY close to it) not because they NEED a moving trigger but because that is what everyone is familiar with.

Given a TL-10+ society, the differences between Slug and Energy from an OPERATOR point of view, might be trivial. RECOIL between weapons will be more important than what comes out the pointy end.

I would lean towards Longarm/Shortarm

Civilian/Military is WAY to confusing and as has been mentioned before would start lawyers fighting at different Law Levels.

So I would suggest:

Ranged/Shortarm
Ranged/Longarm
Ranged/Support
Ranged/Turret
Ranged/Bay

And from there your GMs can differentiate for individual games.

 

[phavoc]

Driving a car and a large truck are both covered by drive (wheeled) are they not? I see no reason it couldn't work for guns too - otherwise lots of skills need more sub-skills

That's correct. And pilot skill allows a player to fly a 100ton scout as equally well as a 2,000 ton freighter. From the game's point of view.

Weapon combat has always been something that is more personalized than say flying a starship or driving a vehicle. The explanation I was giving had to do more with reality than the game mechanics. For the game you need to simplify things or else, like you pointed out, there would be many more sub-skills needed.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Driving a car and a large truck are both covered by drive (wheeled) are they not? I see no reason it couldn't work for guns too - otherwise lots of skills need more sub-skills

That's correct. And pilot skill allows a player to fly a 100ton scout as equally well as a 2,000 ton freighter. From the game's point of view.

Weapon combat has always been something that is more personalized than say flying a starship or driving a vehicle. The explanation I was giving had to do more with reality than the game mechanics. For the game you need to simplify things or else, like you pointed out, there would be many more sub-skills needed.

Exactly, and this is where the GM can step in and say "I know you have Gun Combat (slug rifle) but your character has never seen a musket from 1750 before and will not get the full bonus!" Or something like that. Same with driving, or medic skills or anything. Never driven anything larger than a regular car before? Expect some -DM until you get the hang of it. I'm also gonna let one character try to pilot a 100 ton spaceship some day, even though her closest skill is flyer (grav). Not full skill effect, and certainly not alone, but she'll get to try. The rest of the group, lacking either pilot or grav will not be allowed near the bridge though.

 

[dragoner]

Technically the difference between Lasers, and regular firearms, is that it would be perfectly flat shooting, and without the time to lead. I could see it being somewhat different skill sets. Pistols though as well, with the difference being point shooting and CQB, vs say a rifle, but that there isn't a "soldier-1" or some such skill.

 

[Infojunky]

Okay, after a lot of discussion, we have pared the choices of Gun Combat to one of the following;

1. Civilian/Military (splitting between easy to use and stuff that needs proper training - I think this will be on the bottom rung for most people though).

2. Shortarm/Longarm (as advocated by Mongoose's Official Weapons Person - ex-sergeant French Army)

3. Slug/Energy (strong arguments for this one too)

What would you fancy?

Three, is my first choice as the type is going to be the most important factor.

Two is second, in that there is a world of difference between Pistols and Rifles etc. etc...

One is right out, (Let me put it this way, a .38 revolver and a combat rigged 12 gauge where my most common issue Firarms when I was in the Service. Are the military or Civilian?)

Finally a combination of Two and Three seems to fit the bill, i.e. Gun Cbt (Energy Pistol); Gun Cbt (Slug Carbine/PDW) etc.. etc..

 

[Infojunky]

Slug / Energy is the best of the three.

But where is the dividing line? If you know slug does that mean you know pistol/rifle/smg/guass/machinegun/VRF gauss gun?

Ah the rub, to be honest Pistols ,rifles, smgs are all real similar. But Machine Guns vary a lot mostly in their layout, i.e a M60, BAR and the like with rifle like layouts could be safely be lumped with Rifles. Then you have mounted Machine Guns like M2HB, M19 and the VRF Gauss Gun who without a little bit of training can be very mystifying in operation.

Side question Why does everyone keep separating Gauss weapons out from the rest of Slug Throwers?

 

[atpollard]

OK, I have no love lost for the Military/Civilian split ... both of the other choices are better ... but it is not as silly as is being implied by the comments.

I can legally own and fire an M2 .50 caliber Heavy Machine Gun in many states (although I doubt that I could afford the ammo bill).
However, no one here seriously thinks that controlling the fire from an M2 is comparable to shooting a bolt action hunting rifle in the same way that shooting a Semi-Auto AR-15 is similar to shooting a bolt action hunting rifle.

I would hope that the difference between Ranged, Civilian-1 and Ranged, Military-1 is familiarity with how to control Full Auto fire, how to accurately aim the under-slung grenade launcher, familiarity with the night-vision optics. In addition, I would assume that Ranged, Military-1 would function like Ranged, Civilian-1 PLUS additional skills.

Like I said, I think that there are better options, but civilian vs. military is not as unthinkable as it is being painted by the mud slinging.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Side question Why does everyone keep separating Gauss weapons out from the rest of Slug Throwers?

While the firing and targeting should be similar to a slug thrower, maintenance and knowledge of how it operates would be most similar to an energy weapon. Its a line straddler weapon.

 

[Benzaiten26]

Since I'm so impassioned on the topic, do I get to vote twice? It is the reason I signed up to comment on this forum, so I think so. Lol.

slug weapons / energy weapons.

 

[dragoner]

IMO, MG's should be separated out, too much ability to wreck them if one isn't trained; like shooting the barrel out on light ones like the MG42 family or checking Headspace on the M2HB. CT's original rules in Book 4 were actually quite good on this.

 

[dragoner]

Since I'm so impassioned on the topic, do I get to vote twice? It is the reason I signed up to comment on this forum, so I think so. Lol.

slug weapons / energy weapons.

I think it is a "one person, one vote" here, and Matt is the one with the vote. :wink:

But hey, welcome and stick around.

 

[Benzaiten26]

The dividing line is in the mechanisms of the weapons themselves. That's the reason why Gauss Weapons are separated out.

Each of the different weapon systems would require very different skills to maintain, aim, understand, modify, repair, etc., but, for weapons all using the same mechanism, it'd use the same skills.

Just because a slug thrower has an 18 in barrel or a 3 inch barrel, literally the only difference between a pistol and a rifle, it'd still use the exact same skill set. The ONLY thing that separates weapons with different barrel lengths is their best effective ranges, but this is clearly and easily compensated for using the weapons range table on page 65 of the Traveller core book.

The same said for all laser weapons, gauss weapons, neural weapons, etc.

 

[DickTurpin]

The most logical way to separate the weapon classes is shortarm/longarm due to the different way each is aimed.

A pistol is used held away from the body with the arm(s) fully extended, with the shooter's primary focus on the front sight only.

A longarm is used with the arms bent, pulling the shoulder stock firmly against your shoulder, cheek pressed against the stock, and viewing the front sight through the gap in the rear sight.

Whether the weapon uses the kinetic energy of a projectile or a focused light beam to transfer energy to a target, the form and use of the weapons will be nearly the same within each category. Differences in performance like the trajectory and the need to lead a moving target with a bullet can more accurately be accounted for by separate lines in the range table than by making them a separate skill to use.

 

[Infojunky]

Side question Why does everyone keep separating Gauss weapons out from the rest of Slug Throwers?

While the firing and targeting should be similar to a slug thrower, maintenance and knowledge of how it operates would be most similar to an energy weapon. Its a line straddler weapon.

Actually with the advent of the Electrothermal-chemical weapons such as the ACR family of weapons the internal types and layouts of parts of Gauss weapons wouldn't be all that different.

 

[Benzaiten26]

A pistol is used held away from the body with the arm(s) fully extended, with the shooter's primary focus on the front sight only.

A longarm is used with the arms bent, pulling the shoulder stock firmly against your shoulder, cheek pressed against the stock, and viewing the front sight through the gap in the rear sight.

So, yeah, lining up the sights is the skill. I doubt hivers or other species would do it the same way. So, how they line up the sights is irrelevent.

Clearing a weapon, compensating for recoil, leading a target, swapping ammo, zero-g effects, ammo differences and requirements. Every aspect of using a weapon (the skill) is based on the mechanism of the weapon not its barrels length.