Traveller Weapon Playtest Comments
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
So having had some time to think about it here is how I would breakdown the specializations.
Gun Combat
-Slug Rifle
-Slug Pistol
-Energy Rifle
-Energy Pistol
-Shotgun
Justification Rifles, Pistols, and Shotguns have very different firing traits. Spread on shotgun, longer range on rifle and short range to pistols. For energy vs slug well I can't talk from experience but I would guess that a laser pistol would handle very differently then a Gauss pistol. This break down also lends its self to easy classification of most weapons regardless of setting. Also I happened to notice this is how the core rule book broke it down.
Heavy Weapons
-Artillery Direct
-Artillery Indirect
-Man Portable
Direct aiming is very different than indirect aiming, in my understanding, and the man portable category is for the "small" stuff. Once again easy to break down weapons into categories. One downside/upside is that some weapons can be fired direct or indirect so could be used by either skill depending on mode.
I will say a break down in military and civilian is setting specific possibly varying within the same setting. One world might define and weapon as military and another not make the distinction with both worlds in the same setting for that matter. And when that is the case which definition do you use?
Gun Combat
-Slug Rifle
-Slug Pistol
-Energy Rifle
-Energy Pistol
-Shotgun
Justification Rifles, Pistols, and Shotguns have very different firing traits. Spread on shotgun, longer range on rifle and short range to pistols. For energy vs slug well I can't talk from experience but I would guess that a laser pistol would handle very differently then a Gauss pistol. This break down also lends its self to easy classification of most weapons regardless of setting. Also I happened to notice this is how the core rule book broke it down.
Heavy Weapons
-Artillery Direct
-Artillery Indirect
-Man Portable
Direct aiming is very different than indirect aiming, in my understanding, and the man portable category is for the "small" stuff. Once again easy to break down weapons into categories. One downside/upside is that some weapons can be fired direct or indirect so could be used by either skill depending on mode.
I will say a break down in military and civilian is setting specific possibly varying within the same setting. One world might define and weapon as military and another not make the distinction with both worlds in the same setting for that matter. And when that is the case which definition do you use?
Benzaiten26
Mongoose
Lol. Dividing weapons between civilian and military will do nothing but spark huge debates between GM's and players.
Remember with Traveller's law levels changing from planet to planet, what is a civilian weapon and what is a military weapon will change GREATLY not just from system to system, but on balkanized worlds from country to country.
PLEASE, PLEASE don't use this system...
Remember with Traveller's law levels changing from planet to planet, what is a civilian weapon and what is a military weapon will change GREATLY not just from system to system, but on balkanized worlds from country to country.
PLEASE, PLEASE don't use this system...
I'm all for keeping things simple, but please don't make them TOO simple. I don't want things to get down to "Skill - Gun Combat: Allows a player to pull a trigger on any man-portable weapon and apply their skill level as a positive DM."
Grouping weapons logically makes sense, but please keep it both logical AND sensible. Being trained on how to handle an assault rifle allows a person to quickly learn the unique differences between and H&K, M-16 or AK-74. Same goes for if you were a civilian firing an AR-15 and you picked up an M-16 for the Zombie apocalypse. It's roughly the same thing once you've mastered knowing how to shoot a rifle. Having said that, knowing how to fire an M-16 really doesn't help much with say knowing how to fire a flintlock, or at least not in getting to apply your skill levels beyond zero, or perhaps 1.
That works it's way into everything else. Knowing how to handle a SAW helps you with an M-60, or even a .50cal. But you aren't able to translate that into say being able to fire a 60mm mortar or a grenade launcher (at least well).
I'm fine with say the pistol skill being applicable across slug, gauss and energy. But maybe the way to address some of this is to simply cap the skill level at say 1 when applying across a family of weapons, and any higher level needs to be more specific. For example:
Mac Daddy - Pistol (energy)-4, Rifle (gauss)-3. So he could use any pistol at level 1, but whenever he uses an energy pistol he gets to apply the full level. For rifles he could use a slug thrower or laser rifle at level-1, but he's best with a gauss rifle and gets the full DM.
Having some separation allows characters to have more realistic skill sets. It also allows for more personalization for the PC's and keeps the weapon skill system more relevant and less generic.
Grouping weapons logically makes sense, but please keep it both logical AND sensible. Being trained on how to handle an assault rifle allows a person to quickly learn the unique differences between and H&K, M-16 or AK-74. Same goes for if you were a civilian firing an AR-15 and you picked up an M-16 for the Zombie apocalypse. It's roughly the same thing once you've mastered knowing how to shoot a rifle. Having said that, knowing how to fire an M-16 really doesn't help much with say knowing how to fire a flintlock, or at least not in getting to apply your skill levels beyond zero, or perhaps 1.
That works it's way into everything else. Knowing how to handle a SAW helps you with an M-60, or even a .50cal. But you aren't able to translate that into say being able to fire a 60mm mortar or a grenade launcher (at least well).
I'm fine with say the pistol skill being applicable across slug, gauss and energy. But maybe the way to address some of this is to simply cap the skill level at say 1 when applying across a family of weapons, and any higher level needs to be more specific. For example:
Mac Daddy - Pistol (energy)-4, Rifle (gauss)-3. So he could use any pistol at level 1, but whenever he uses an energy pistol he gets to apply the full level. For rifles he could use a slug thrower or laser rifle at level-1, but he's best with a gauss rifle and gets the full DM.
Having some separation allows characters to have more realistic skill sets. It also allows for more personalization for the PC's and keeps the weapon skill system more relevant and less generic.
Yes - I want to step away from this "Civilian" vs "Military" differentiation.
I am in favour of:
Gun Combat (PDW) or gun Combat (Personal) if you want to keep it abstract - covering pistols, SMGs, etc
Gun Combat (Rifle) or Gun Combat (Assault) - covering rifles, etc
Shotguns? either add it to personal or put it in that 3rd group along with some other items.
I am in favour of:
Gun Combat (PDW) or gun Combat (Personal) if you want to keep it abstract - covering pistols, SMGs, etc
Gun Combat (Rifle) or Gun Combat (Assault) - covering rifles, etc
Shotguns? either add it to personal or put it in that 3rd group along with some other items.
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
Anyone for this idea:
Gun Combat:
Slug Handgun
Slug Rifle (covers smgs, rifles, shot guns, carbines, etc)
Energy (covers all energy weapons, no matter which the slug variant would go in)
Heavy Weapons:
Man Portable
... etc
Gun Combat:
Slug Handgun
Slug Rifle (covers smgs, rifles, shot guns, carbines, etc)
Energy (covers all energy weapons, no matter which the slug variant would go in)
Heavy Weapons:
Man Portable
... etc
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
Jame Rowe said:
I had that response previously, but think of it like this for a moment.
Uses for Gun Combat (Energy) that should not directly translate to Gun Combat (any slug).
- How to overcharge an energy weapon that will allow you to do more damage, even if it costs you a number of shots fired.
- How to cause an energy weapon to malfunction/explode.
- When to stop using a damaged energy weapon before it explodes.
- Knowing how to jerry rig a converter from a hand gun power clip for use with an energy rifle.
- How long a power clip needs to recharge.
- What kind of energy field would disrupt the energy weapon's discharge/cause it to miss its target.
- Basic gun maintenance.
Mind you, I can see some cross over with some other skills for some of these, but I would be much more open to a player's argument for why they could use gun combat (energy) in these situations then I would be if it was divided into: handgun, long arm, support, etc.
I mean, being familiar enough with a 9mm to make it backfire on the user is going to be an entirely different animal then knowing how short circuit a stun weapon.
dmccoy1693 said:
That sounds like Unabomber-1 skill. :lol:
Yes, military doesn't ring so well, but nor does combat either; and with military, one could say they a least know how to hold an e-tool, which is just about as important in combat as pulling a trigger. But it doesn't matter, if you want to avoid arguments between ref's and players then be ready to compromise, that is the best solution.
In my experience, skill levels 4 and above start to become ringers, esp with stat bonuses; so maybe it is good to have granularity to prevent that. But otherwise, pistol, rifle, and support make the most sense; but I'd just let the player pick a weapon they like. BTW, has anyone ever had a player or character that had "spinal weapons" and actually used it?
dmccoy1693 said:
Actually, I'd account setting the 9mm to explode would be Mechanics, while the stunner would be Electronics. (Though if you have Engineer you could do the same thing for either...)
Because, for me, the skill to shoot it is not quite the same as destroying it - though near enough.
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
Jame Rowe said:
Now if you were in my game and you argued to use your gun combat skill to make your gun explode, I'd allow it. Mind you, I wouldn't allow you to do that to use explosives in general. Only for making the gun itself explode. And I wouldn't allow you to use gun combat (energy) to make a 9mm explode (even if it was only a +0 you got) and I might tack on a -2 DM since that is not something that is not basic level knowledge with it. But I would allow this specific instance for this narrow use.
Guys, let please not forget to balance our discussions regarding realistic, with also what is fun. Otherwise, Traveller would be the game where starship software shoots, trades, plots destinations while intelligent gun software plugged into cybernetic arms does the rest. 
While their maybe some realistic differences between an energy rifle and slug rifle, or a shotgun from an SMG, or what skill to best use to have a gun explode (electronics or mechanics to me sounds great!), ultimately what is cleaner and more easily adopted to attract new players and keep the game fun for old players, should be just as much (if not more) of a factor, then realism.
While their maybe some realistic differences between an energy rifle and slug rifle, or a shotgun from an SMG, or what skill to best use to have a gun explode (electronics or mechanics to me sounds great!), ultimately what is cleaner and more easily adopted to attract new players and keep the game fun for old players, should be just as much (if not more) of a factor, then realism.
Benzaiten26
Mongoose
I'm waiting for someone to explain to me how the skills needed to operate a pistol and a rifle are so different as to warrant separate specializations.
Whereas, in Engineering the specializations are hugely different. Power plant, Electronics, Maneuver Drive and Jump Drive. Power plant, for example, I assume would cover fusion plants, fission plants, solar power collectors, internal combustion and batteries, to name a few.
With this same logic Slug Weapons under Gun Combat should include all rifles, pistols, SMGs, shotguns, assault rifles etc. that fire slugs using the same mechanism.
Laser Weapons should include all weapons (pistols, rifles, etc) that include the same systems as well.
What you're almost inferring here is the introduction of SUB-SPECIALIZATIONS, something this game system and its character generation couldn't encompass.
Players trying to overspecialize in Gun Combat would be defeated, first of all by a great game system and character generation system, that like real life, often leads to characters very different from the life path they intended. Secondly, I like players that try to over specialize in combat skills and leave themselves so disparate in every other area, like piloting or comms. One situation in which the player finds his character the only person left to fly the landing craft and dying in the crash because of the -3 untrained die modifier, and he'll be sure to spread his skill points around more liberally next time (in spite of my warnings, this actually happened BTW).
Whereas, in Engineering the specializations are hugely different. Power plant, Electronics, Maneuver Drive and Jump Drive. Power plant, for example, I assume would cover fusion plants, fission plants, solar power collectors, internal combustion and batteries, to name a few.
With this same logic Slug Weapons under Gun Combat should include all rifles, pistols, SMGs, shotguns, assault rifles etc. that fire slugs using the same mechanism.
Laser Weapons should include all weapons (pistols, rifles, etc) that include the same systems as well.
What you're almost inferring here is the introduction of SUB-SPECIALIZATIONS, something this game system and its character generation couldn't encompass.
Players trying to overspecialize in Gun Combat would be defeated, first of all by a great game system and character generation system, that like real life, often leads to characters very different from the life path they intended. Secondly, I like players that try to over specialize in combat skills and leave themselves so disparate in every other area, like piloting or comms. One situation in which the player finds his character the only person left to fly the landing craft and dying in the crash because of the -3 untrained die modifier, and he'll be sure to spread his skill points around more liberally next time (in spite of my warnings, this actually happened BTW).
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
I don't think PDW should be a category on its own, group it with rifles if you want the difference to be how many hands are needed to use the weapon, or pistols if it's more ammo/penetration/portability related. If PDW end up with pistols (avoids letting rifle skill get all the fun) I suggest that a PDW can be fired one-handed, but at +1 recoil and range changed to pistol (assuming the weapon has assault range).
As for shotguns, why are they more different from rifles than a musket is from a gauss rifle? Now, I understand that someone, say a hunter, could train with a shotgun but never hold an assault rifle, but if that's the case some single-shot hunting rifles should be included too (and perhaps even bows/crossbows?) and the skill could be called Hunting or civilian instead (though civilian should perhaps include some pistols too). Or, since shotguns launch special types of ammo and handle differently from a typical assault rifle, perhaps move handheld grenade/RAM launchers from heavy to shotgun?
Laser Carbines should be included in energy rifles, IMO.
If you end up with lots of skills, they could perhaps relate more to each other? E.g if I have slug rifle 2 I can use a carbine at (rifle-1) instead of 0?
As for the new AP and destructive, sounds good. AP is a bit more rare than before, but easy to use from the tables, though is destructive too... well, destructive? Should it perhaps treat armor points as additional hull points that gets eaten away first, and then the usual vehicle damage table is used? Nah, probably not, I just feel that a heavy armored tank might be a little better off compared to a regular car, otherwise destructive might as well mean "remove target from play".
As for small spacecraft versus ground vehicles, well... It is a bit weird that a 20 ton shuttle built with ship rules is invincible to "all" ground weapons, while its puny beam laser can lay waste to anything in sight, while a similar craft built from supp 5-6 doesn't stand a chance against it. Like a Manta from Dredd, if it was built as a small spacecraft with a beam laser and some personal scale weapons it'd be indestructable, now a 20 ton launch can one-shot it...
As for shotguns, why are they more different from rifles than a musket is from a gauss rifle? Now, I understand that someone, say a hunter, could train with a shotgun but never hold an assault rifle, but if that's the case some single-shot hunting rifles should be included too (and perhaps even bows/crossbows?) and the skill could be called Hunting or civilian instead (though civilian should perhaps include some pistols too). Or, since shotguns launch special types of ammo and handle differently from a typical assault rifle, perhaps move handheld grenade/RAM launchers from heavy to shotgun?
Laser Carbines should be included in energy rifles, IMO.
If you end up with lots of skills, they could perhaps relate more to each other? E.g if I have slug rifle 2 I can use a carbine at (rifle-1) instead of 0?
As for the new AP and destructive, sounds good. AP is a bit more rare than before, but easy to use from the tables, though is destructive too... well, destructive? Should it perhaps treat armor points as additional hull points that gets eaten away first, and then the usual vehicle damage table is used? Nah, probably not, I just feel that a heavy armored tank might be a little better off compared to a regular car, otherwise destructive might as well mean "remove target from play".
As for small spacecraft versus ground vehicles, well... It is a bit weird that a 20 ton shuttle built with ship rules is invincible to "all" ground weapons, while its puny beam laser can lay waste to anything in sight, while a similar craft built from supp 5-6 doesn't stand a chance against it. Like a Manta from Dredd, if it was built as a small spacecraft with a beam laser and some personal scale weapons it'd be indestructable, now a 20 ton launch can one-shot it...
Okay, after a lot of discussion, we have pared the choices of Gun Combat to one of the following;
1. Civilian/Military (splitting between easy to use and stuff that needs proper training - I think this will be on the bottom rung for most people though).
2. Shortarm/Longarm (as advocated by Mongoose's Official Weapons Person - ex-sergeant French Army)
3. Slug/Energy (strong arguments for this one too)
What would you fancy?
1. Civilian/Military (splitting between easy to use and stuff that needs proper training - I think this will be on the bottom rung for most people though).
2. Shortarm/Longarm (as advocated by Mongoose's Official Weapons Person - ex-sergeant French Army)
3. Slug/Energy (strong arguments for this one too)
What would you fancy?
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
I'd be fine with either one of those.
Military/civilian could be difficult, would a singleshot rifle count as a military sniper weapon or civilian hunting rifle (or both)?
Long/short: Very simple. Would this include energy/solid in the same group, and what would happen to the heavy machineguns (fall in under long, or go back to heavy)?
Solid/energy would also work.
I can see argument for either one, and I'm sure whichever you choose will turn out fine! They all sound better than having lots and lots of sub-skills, to me.
Military/civilian could be difficult, would a singleshot rifle count as a military sniper weapon or civilian hunting rifle (or both)?
Long/short: Very simple. Would this include energy/solid in the same group, and what would happen to the heavy machineguns (fall in under long, or go back to heavy)?
Solid/energy would also work.
I can see argument for either one, and I'm sure whichever you choose will turn out fine! They all sound better than having lots and lots of sub-skills, to me.
dmccoy1693
Cosmic Mongoose
Gets my vote.msprange said:
Benzaiten26
Mongoose
Slug Weapons / Energy Weapons....my vote. Hands down.
Although it'd look more like: Slug Weapons / Energy Weapons/ Gauss Weapons / Neural Weapons / Accelerator Weapons.
Please, read my previous posts against the civilian / military and the short arms / long arms methods as I don't want to just repeat myself.
Although it'd look more like: Slug Weapons / Energy Weapons/ Gauss Weapons / Neural Weapons / Accelerator Weapons.
Please, read my previous posts against the civilian / military and the short arms / long arms methods as I don't want to just repeat myself.
