The Origin of the "Shuriken Gun" ?

[rust]

The MagRail weapons firing metal discs (nicknamed "shuriken guns") men-
tioned in Mongoose Traveller's Book 1 Mercenary caused a lot of debate,
and during this debate some people proposed that the authors of Mercena-
ry might have borrowed the idea from the Warhammer 40K game.

This seemed somewhat strange to me, because I did never read or play
any Warhammer game, but I was absolutely certain that I had read about
that kind of weapon a long, long time ago, even before I played my first
game of Traveller.

Today I remembered why I knew that weapon: It appears in the science
fiction novel "The Day of the Triffids", written by John Wyndham and pub-
lished in 1951. It is mentioned there as a "Triffid Gun" that fires small me-
tal discs, with the aim of cutting the triffids in half (or something like that,
it has been a long time since I did read the novel).

Just a bit of trivial information, but perhaps someone else may find it in-
teresting, too. :lol:

 

[captainjack23]

The MagRail weapons firing metal discs (nicknamed "shuriken guns") men-
tioned in Mongoose Traveller's Book 1 Mercenary caused a lot of debate,

Just a bit of trivial information, but perhaps someone else may find it in-
teresting, too. :lol:

FWIW, I remember seeing an old old David Letterman Show segment ( mid-early eighties perhaps ?) about "Worst Christmas Gifts", one of which was a working launcher for circular saw blades mounted in some kind of supersafe kiddie nerf gun-"babies first circular saw launcher"..I remember it being sending a spinning blade deep into some kind of target....at close range.

Not suggesting that its a remotely reasonable weapon, but hey. I know I wanted one for christmas.

 

[rust]

...a working launcher for circular saw blades mounted in some kind of supersafe kiddie nerf gun-"babies first circular saw launcher"...

I hope my neighbour's very ... lively ... kids will never hear about this. :shock:

 

[Charakan]

I've got a copy of Day of the Triffids sat at the side of my bed.

In the book the guns are spring loaded, but the priciples are the same.

Thanks for bringing up the link Rust, it never occured to me.

Wyndham was probably my favourite author when I was a child, he wrote very british science fiction.

 

[Dave Chase]

I can't remember the name of the Moive(s), but they appeared in several that fired a disc of sorts.

One of the disc got stuck in a speaker magnet.

They have been around for a while.

While the name might be more recongized by gamers from Warhammer (Games Workshop games) it is not a new thing.

Dave Chase

 

[simonh]

Disc guns often turn up in first person shooters from time to time, Unreal Tournament had them and you can use the gravity gun in Half Life 2 to fire circular saw blades.

As a practical weapon, the problem with a disk projectile is that it will have rubbish penetration because the impact energy is spread across a wider area than the actual depth of penetration. Even light armour such as flak jackets should be very effective against it. For similar reasons the projectiles will have poor aerodynamics, and would be very susceptible to disturbance by crosswinds.

The main advantage of Hira-Shuriken is that because thrown weapons of this kind spin, having multiple spikes or a circular blade gives a higher chance of a sharp point or edge hiting the target, but in a modern weapon this just shouldn't be an issue.

Triffids are made of soft plant material and the disk guns in the book were used to cut off the poison-tiped whip-like vines that the Triffids were armed with. In this situation a disk with a wide profile gives a greater chance to hit the narrow target, and because the target is relatively soft the disks poor penetration characteristics aren't a problem. I played in a short series of RPG sessions set in day of the Triffids and armed my character with a supply of bolas - it tangles round the triffid's whip, wighing it down so it's effectively useless.

Simon Hibbs

 

[BP]

Don't have Mongoose Mercenary (yet) - but the real feature of the weapon would be that it is a man portable (?) linear accelerator which uses magnetic fields to fire a projectile at extremely high velocity. Typically with a high rate of fire.

While discs may be sub-optimal with regards resistance and penetration normally, at high speeds these become non-issues - and the larger surface area means more damage force (and still has a thin edge for penetration).

I believe last year the USN began testing larger scale versions of such for ship based weapons systems - electromagnetic railguns. (Not a disk shaped munition I believe). Hypersonic (mach 7+) kinetic rounds with 200 mile ranges that can be fired high angle of attack - i.e. over the mountain, and up to 10 rounds per minute. Pretty wicked stuff - and no explosive magazine onboard of munitions and propellant...

They also recently began tests on a laser based Phalanx style close-in weapons system - Centurion I believe its named - out at White Sands (I think).

Oh - and DARPA is working on MAHEM - Magneto Hydrodynamic Explosive Munition. Its a self-forging penetrator that would shoot molten metal at high velocity using electromagnetic propulsion. Not sure if that one has ever truly left the drawing board though...

 

[hdrider67]

The MagRail weapons firing metal discs (nicknamed "shuriken guns") men-
tioned in Mongoose Traveller's Book 1 Mercenary caused a lot of debate,
and during this debate some people proposed that the authors of Mercena-
ry might have borrowed the idea from the Warhammer 40K game.

This seemed somewhat strange to me, because I did never read or play
any Warhammer game, but I was absolutely certain that I had read about
that kind of weapon a long, long time ago, even before I played my first
game of Traveller.

Today I remembered why I knew that weapon: It appears in the science
fiction novel "The Day of the Triffids", written by John Wyndham and pub-
lished in 1951. It is mentioned there as a "Triffid Gun" that fires small me-
tal discs, with the aim of cutting the triffids in half (or something like that,
it has been a long time since I did read the novel).

Just a bit of trivial information, but perhaps someone else may find it in-
teresting, too. :lol:

I didn't care for the idea of disks, so I transmogrified magrails from shuriken throwers to "Magnum Gauss" type weapons. Now I like them.

 

[grymlocke]

over thinking....
simple answer: video games...becasue it looks really kewl

don't like them myself. Think they're dumb, illogical, overly complex and munchkinning for 'true traveller'.

 

[zozotroll]

Resistasnce and crosswinds are never a non issue, because no matter how high the velocity, a proper balistic shape will perform better than a disc.

The disc will lose more velocity per kilometer traveled than a dart. The disc will also be blown more off course by any wind effects. Once it hits a target, it will penetrate less as well. And the power needed to drive it will also be greater, due to the much greater mass of that big ol saw blade.

So they may be great weapons in anime or video games, but in a real world weapon, they will always be inferior, and very few militarys wish to purposely equip themselves with inferior weapons. Certainly none that want to actuily win any battles.

As mentioned above, I just reworded them as a powerful version of a gauss weapon and been happy ever since.

 

[Leo Knight]

I seem to remember an episode of "Lost in Space" called "Hunter's Moon", where John Robinson was the quarry in a sort of "Most Dangerous Game" big game hunt. The bad guy hunter had a wierd looking gun that launched spiked disks. Always go with the classics. :wink:

 

[rust]

So they may be great weapons in anime or video games, but in a real world weapon, they will always be inferior, and very few militarys wish to purposely equip themselves with inferior weapons. Certainly none that want to actuily win any battles.

True, but there have been more than a few real world cases where armed
forces introduced weapons that were obviously inferior, and even a few
cases where seemingly inferior weapons proved to be astonishingly effi-
cient under certain circumstances.

 

[BP]

...Once it hits a target, it will penetrate less as well. And the power needed to drive it will also be greater, due to the much greater mass of that big ol saw blade. ...

Note that the larger mass and surface area will do more damage - penetration is nice - but sometimes it is the amount of damage that matters...

For instance - it can be much better (from the targets point of view) for a bullet to penetrate all the way through the body than for it to just punch part way through and dissipate its full energy (think hollow points)...

Likewise with self-sealing fuel tanks and harder to hit items (hydraulics)...

Of course, there is still the issue of penetration enough to do damage - and that is were the extra kinetic energy from the railgun makes the difference.

No doubt that a streamlined shape is more efficient in flight (except in a vacuum) and penetration - but it is not necessarily more effective.

 

[atpollard]

True, but there have been more than a few real world cases where armed forces introduced weapons that were obviously inferior, and even a few cases where seemingly inferior weapons proved to be astonishingly efficient under certain circumstances.

Too vauge. :wink:
Could you provide an example for those of us lacking an encyclopedic knowledge of obscure prototype weapons.

 

[B_Steele]

I'm glad people have seen that my "invention" and including of Magrail weapons (couldn't go and call them by a copyrighted name, could I?) in Mercenary was not so absurd by science fiction tropes after all.

Thanks for finding a few more references than even I had. (Althought "Triffids", "I Come in Peace" and 40k were my main inspirations)

Cheers,
Bry

 

[rust]

Could you provide an example for those of us lacking an encyclopedic knowledge of obscure prototype weapons.

A nice example of a kind of weapon that looks incredible at first sight
but proved to be devastating was Tippu Sahib's "sword rocket":

"After the fall of Srirangapattana, 600 launchers, 700 serviceable
rockets and 9,000 empty rockets were found. Some of the rockets had
pierced cylinders, to allow them to act like incendiaries, while some
had iron points or steel blades bound to the bamboo. By attaching
these blades to rockets they became very unstable towards the
end of their flight causing the blades to spin around like flying
scythes, cutting down all in their path."

I do not know how you would feel about the idea to attach a sword to a
primitive black powder rocket in the hope to make it more dangerous -
to me, it would seem ridiculous. But I would be wrong. :shock:

 

[BP]

...while some had iron points or steel blades bound to the bamboo. By attaching these blades to rockets they became very unstable...

See Habib - I told you - Swords from the heavens...
We are truly blessed!
Down with the infidels - We are no longer unarmed! :lol:

[Quick Habib - help me get this bless-ed sword outta poor Najm before the infidels arrive!]

 

[GamerDude]

The "flying disk rifle" idea does look cool (and check out Hugh Jackman's Rapid Fire Repeating Crossbow in 'Van Helsing' for something just as neat) it does seem a bit silly in real life...

... unless the blades have gyroscopic stabilizers inside them to keep them flying straight and true, and have monomolecular filaments lining their edge for extra sharpness, and are made out of some super tough but amazingly light metal like mithril. 8)

 

[BP]

Excepting those things of course...

[Definitely want one of those GamerDude!]

 

[dmccoy1693]

over thinking....
simple answer: video games...becasue it looks really kewl

*trip down memory lane* ohhh the megaman villin that shot circular saw blades from his shooting arm. Ohhh those were the days.