The Imperium without the Ancients

[daryen]

IMO, the biggest thing the Ancient's add to the game is the reason for humanity being spread all over that section of the galaxy ...

In one of the sidebars in GURPS Traveller, LKW explicitly stated as much. They wanted the aliens that the first Terran explorers find to be humans. To do this, they had to have something non-human spread primitive humanity out. Thus the need for the Ancients.

Without the Ancients, the Droynes are still pastoral TL<8 on their home planet. Grandfather invented the jump drive and uplifted the Droyne race. Without Grandfather to uplift the Droyne, there is no reason to expect them to have gained jump drive on their own. They were static. Grandfather was the stimulous to get them moving.

Without the Ancients, the Aslan are probably dead. It was the "discovery" of jump drive that allowed the Tlaukhu to survive, and without which it would have failed. It is established canon that the Aslan discovered jump drive because of a crashed Solomani ship. Then again, maybe not, as it would only take one Terran mistake to create a similar occurance. Who knows? But the Aslan survived because of "found" technology. Who knows if they would "find" the technology in a timely enough manner without the setting created by the Ancients.

Without the Ancients, the Vargr would of course not exist. Neither would any of the vast array of human races that were created by both the Ancients and by other humans. This isn't necessarily a net loss, as a whole new set of altered humans would likely result from advances in Terran technology.

Without the Ancients, it is not even a sure thing that humans would have survived long on the interstellar scene. It was their competition with, and wars against, the vast Vilani Empire that forced the Terrans into anything that remotely resembled a cohesive force. Without the presence of a common enemy, there is no reason to believe that the Terrans would not have reduced themselves to petty internal wars with catastrophic. We can be optimistic, of course, but there is in our current track record that would indicate its chances.

Without the Ancients, a large portion of Charted Space would be dominated by two powerful enemies, both of whose reach would eventually close enough to Terra to influence it. At that point, Terra's survival would depend on which found it first. I am, of course, talking about the K'kree and the Hivers. They would be the dominant empires of Charted Space.

 

[kristof65]

Without the Ancients, the Droynes are still pastoral TL<8 on their home planet. Grandfather invented the jump drive and uplifted the Droyne race. Without Grandfather to uplift the Droyne, there is no reason to expect them to have gained jump drive on their own. They were static. Grandfather was the stimulous to get them moving.

Not according to Secret of the Ancients. It explicitely states that the Droyne had achieved a tech level of 10 but still had not discovered jump drive, and had mounted a few interstellar expeditions before Grandfather came along.

So the qustion becomes - would the Droyne have eventually discovered jump drive on their own in the nearly 300,000 years before Humanity comes on the scene? IMO, the area is a much more interesting place if they do.

Without the Ancients, a large portion of Charted Space would be dominated by two powerful enemies, both of whose reach would eventually close enough to Terra to influence it. At that point, Terra's survival would depend on which found it first. I am, of course, talking about the K'kree and the Hivers. They would be the dominant empires of Charted Space.

A campaign set among the Hiver empire including humanity could be fairly interesting...

 

[zanwot]

Given the inherent psionic abilities of the Droyne(prolonging life) I put to you a
psychohistory take on it: If Grandfather did not exist, another Droyne would have become grandfather. Ok they are not naturally curious and super intelligent and gifted, but eventually some Droyne has to be given enough Droynes and enough time.


Or maybe in a more exotic version a cast of super star immortal droynes would eventually have appeared given 300.000 years and the numbers they would have reached as they spread in the stars, creating a very alive race of ancients.

Is it not supposed to be that the Droyne homeworld is in the pocket universe with Grandfather? In that case I would place the Droyne homeworld on the spinward main, maybe Regina. the consequence of this, given Droyne culture, would be that by the time the Droyne get Jump 2, the spinward main would be a hyper developped Droyne space, populated by trillions of Droyne. In that view you could have Droynes all over the place, but core planets on the spinward main. That gives an indication on placing and timing: Maybe they would have indeed bumped into Aslan uplifting them, and maybe KKree and Hiver would indeeed have
forged huge empires.

So humans could have woken up to discover other 4 major races: The elder super star Droynes, the expanding relatively primitive Aslan, and the powerfull Hiver and KKree empires. That's fun stuff.

 

[mhensley]

I would probably go with the idea of there being several "ancient" major races alongside the droyne. They fought it out long ago and reduced all of their empires to scattered remnants. The Aslan discover jump drive from the ruins of some ancient site and are more advanced than the humans when they first encounter them. The Aslan are overjoyed at finding new prey to fight and invade human space, eventually taking over Earth itself. The remaining humans are pushed farther and farther towards Hiver space until they finally encounter them. The Hivers are appalled at the idea of having the Aslan for neighbors so they share their tech with the humans and protect them until they are ready to go back to war with the Aslan and retake Earth. The humans kick kitty-butt until the Aslan are pushed back to the pre-invasion borders. The campaign would be set in the neutral zone a few years after the last peace-treaty being signed. This would give the whole thing a nice Wing Commander/Kzinti wars feel.

 

[mhensley]

I love the Vargr, so while I could do without the Ancients and their spreading of humanity, I'd have to figure out a way for the Vargr to still exist.

Just make them like the Aslan- they may look like lions but they aren't. The Vargr aren't uplifted dogs, they evolved that way on their own homeworld.

 

[daryen]

Without the Ancients, the Droynes are still pastoral TL<8 on their home planet. Grandfather invented the jump drive and uplifted the Droyne race. Without Grandfather to uplift the Droyne, there is no reason to expect them to have gained jump drive on their own. They were static. Grandfather was the stimulous to get them moving.

Not according to Secret of the Ancients. It explicitely states that the Droyne had achieved a tech level of 10 but still had not discovered jump drive, and had mounted a few interstellar expeditions before Grandfather came along.

I stand corrected. (I hate getting old. My memory starts to go ...)

So the qustion becomes - would the Droyne have eventually discovered jump drive on their own in the nearly 300,000 years before Humanity comes on the scene? IMO, the area is a much more interesting place if they do.

Yes, in that case, I see no reason that they wouldn't. 300,000 years is plenty of time for them to eventually trip across it ...

A campaign set among the Hiver empire including humanity could be fairly interesting...

I like the Hiver greatly. Their potential as a true NPC race is just endless. They make utterly awesome patrons!

For a great setup, have them try to convince the fledgling Terran empire to join the Federation. The Terrans resist the overtures. Then, the Terrans meet the K'kree and go running into the Hivers tentacles, as they immediately chose the far lesser of two evils.

Lots of political background opportunities with that one.

 

[kristof65]

Not according to Secret of the Ancients. It explicitely states that the Droyne had achieved a tech level of 10 but still had not discovered jump drive, and had mounted a few interstellar expeditions before Grandfather came along.

I stand corrected. (I hate getting old. My memory starts to go ...)

To be fair, I work from home, and the bookshelves in my office also happen to house all my Traveller books. So I went and read as soon as I saw this topic, which meant it was fresh in my mind.

 

[Travellingdave]

So it seems we like a Droyne Diaspora that puts them all over the area, but not in an aggressive or dominant state. Still, no one messes with them because they are so many eons ahead of the rest of the races they can kick anyone's ass with one wing tied down.

Then we have the expansionist Aslan using their newly acquired j-drive technology to carve some serious new territory for themselves.

Then we have the technologically progressive but culturally diverse Terrans starting to explore their stellar neighborhood only to run smack into the expanding Aslan. War would be too subtle a term for the result. At first the Terrans would be at a disadvantage until they truly united and brought their full industrial capacity to hand (sound familiar?). Still, they'd probably be able to hold their own and eventually achieve some level of parity with the Aslan; Terran technology proving a balance against Aslan daring and aggressiveness.

As the Aslan-Terran Conflict rages on, a Terran scout encounters the Hiver Federation, which is still having its own problems with the K'Kree. After some initial paranoia, they sign a mutual defense pact. Technology is shared, trade established, and the cultural ties begun. The joint Human-Hiver Hegemony is born in war and grows in trust as the two races realize how much they have in common.

It doesn't take long for the Hivers to realize that the Aslan are the perfect enemy for the K'kree, and soon set forth a plan to manipulate contact between the two races ....

 

[daryen]

The joint Human-Hiver Hegemony is born in war and grows in trust as the two races realize how much they have in common.

I think that there is no way there would ever be an equal standing between the two races. If the Humans join with the Hivers, the Humans would join the Hiver Federation, not the other way around. The Hivers would preach "equality", but really, they would continue to run the show, and the Humans would join as another major "equal" race like the Ithklur and Gurvin.

Which, quite frankly, is fine. And provides a lot of nuanced relationships between the Humans and the Hivers. Fun all around, actually.

And I do love the idea of getting the Aslan and K'kree together for some happy-fun time. As long as I get to be a spectator, NOT a participant ...

 

[hdan]

That might be an interesting setting - one in which Humaniti was the client race in a larger inhuman empire.

 

[EDG]

Without the Ancients, the Aslan are probably dead. It was the "discovery" of jump drive that allowed the Tlaukhu to survive, and without which it would have failed. It is established canon that the Aslan discovered jump drive because of a crashed Solomani ship. Then again, maybe not, as it would only take one Terran mistake to create a similar occurance. Who knows? But the Aslan survived because of "found" technology. Who knows if they would "find" the technology in a timely enough manner without the setting created by the Ancients.

The Aslan CT Alien module just says that the two main clans "co-operated to an unprecedented degree to produce a star drive", no mention of getting their tech from relic/crashed ships.

The idea of the Aslan getting J-drive off a crashed ship was presented in the DGP Solomani and Aslan supplement (and thus is "dubious canon" officially. But since we're rewriting stuff here that may not matter - besides it's a much cooler idea IMO than what was in CT ). But it was a crashed Solomani ship (Pathfinder), not an Ancient one.

The Ancients appear to have had no influence on the Aslan at all, so I see them just continuing as described - the Solomani still invent the jump drive when they did, still crash their ship on Kusyu (or not ), and the Aslan still get into space when they did as a result. We'd have an expanding Solomani Sphere, and the Aslan would run into it on its spinward edge, and the Sphere would expand into Hiver space on its trailing edge - but there's still plenty of room for Solomani expansion to coreward and rimward. The K'Kree would still be where they are, but with no Vargr or Vilani or Zhodani around.

As for the Droyne, they'd occupy just a few worlds (only reached by sublight, with no jump drive at TL10) and had they had no interest in expanding outwards any further. Maybe they shook themselves out of their "Long Plateau" a few hundred thousand years later to become a major race, or maybe they just died out. But I can't see them being a major player in a universe without Ancients.

 

[Travellingdave]

I think that there is no way there would ever be an equal standing between the two races. If the Humans join with the Hivers, the Humans would join the Hiver Federation, not the other way around. The Hivers would preach "equality", but really, they would continue to run the show, and the Humans would join as another major "equal" race like the Ithklur and Gurvin.

I could work with that, too. I'd probably play the humans as more assertive than the other "equal" races, perhaps occasionally challenging even the Hivers for alpha position in the Federation. The Hivers may find themselves spending a lot of time and energy trying to redirect Terran ambitions in other directions. Yeah, there are a lot of stories in that dynamic.

Never underestimate human ambition.

 

[GypsyComet]

The idea of the Aslan getting J-drive off a crashed ship was presented in the DGP Solomani and Aslan supplement (and thus is "dubious canon" officially. But since we're rewriting stuff here that may not matter - besides it's a much cooler idea IMO than what was in CT ). But it was a crashed Solomani ship (Pathfinder), not an Ancient one.

A little earlier than that, actually. The issue of Traveller's Digest that visited Kusyu provided the big reveal, and subsequent discussions with Loren and Marc that appeared in print and online stated that this secret had been part of the setting for a long time. It was not an invention of DGP.

 

[zanwot]

Humans in Hiver Federation?
I would see the Hivers giving the political decision making to the humans... While the Hivers very modestly take the roles of advisors, experts, and planners...

I think humans should be divided into 2 : two thirds stay independent and fight the Aslan wars, while one third is integrated into the Hiver federation as mentionned above, giving them the illusion of power.

Also I think Vargr as a genetic experiment of humans is a must, created to fight the Aslans. They probably have broken loose and forged their own pirate colonies making the most of the Human Aslan wars...

I also think Droyne should definitly be around as an elder race, they fit very well, and given 300.000 years of headstart it is believable, even with their passivity. Give them TL17, antimatter, black globes, high miniaturisation, Zhodani psionic tech, and you are just about right. It serves well to give an exotic aspect, limits expasion corewards of the Aslan, and would make PCs travelling between this alteernate universe and the 3I freak out.

 

[kristof65]

As for the Droyne, they'd occupy just a few worlds (only reached by sublight, with no jump drive at TL10) and had they had no interest in expanding outwards any further. Maybe they shook themselves out of their "Long Plateau" a few hundred thousand years later to become a major race, or maybe they just died out. But I can't see them being a major player in a universe without Ancients.

While I don't see them being a major player, I think it would be interesting to have them every where, with no real explaination as to why. Some regressed like chirpers, others with their own little pastoral worlds and no obvious interstellar tech.

I'd set it up so that they discover jump drive, and explore out a little, but lose interest, and "lose" the j-drive tech. A few hundred or a thousand years later, a few of their worlds "rediscover" jump, and expand out a little more. Basically set it up so they only use jump drive when either one particular droyne or clan gets a little too curious, or they have reason to leave a particular planet, like population overcrowding, or threats to the planet's eco-system.

Set it up so they build a few jump capable ships, take them to a few systems until they find one or a few they like, then they disassemble them for their new colonies. Repeat every few hundred years, until they're scattered all over the place.

Where you need/want to, have their jump tech fall into the hands of other, possibly more expansionistic/aggressive races.

This way you have this puzzle of how the Droyne got everywhere, considering their highest tech level worlds are TL10, with no signs of jump, no signs of higher TLs, and the bulk of them at a pre-stellar tech.


oooh oooh...'nother idea. Set it up so the Droyne discover jump drives, but not how to properly control them - instead of sophisticated computers to calculate their jumps, they use Droyne with a special psionic affinity to do so. Make it so only a couple Droyne are born with this ability every so often, and eventually - say 25-50 thousand years ago, that ability finally died off.

Then you have this situation where the Droyne have 'partially' completed jump drives - like they've been trying to figure it out. Maybe even have the j-drives/starships be some sort of temples where promising young droyne are brought to test if they have the 'star-walking' ability. Then you really have a puzzle for the scientists - it appears that they can't figure j-drive out, yet they obviously knew how to work it at one point, because they are everywhere.

 

[EDG]

Humans in Hiver Federation?
I would see the Hivers giving the political decision making to the humans... While the Hivers very modestly take the roles of advisors, experts, and planners...

Bear in mind that there already are Humans in the Hiver Federation - IIRC there's a couple of minor races that were integrated into the Federation close to the border (presumably in the Langere region). But they've been mentioned in GT:AR3 anyway, and are described as having a rather different outlook to Solomani humans.

 

[AKAramis]

Those human minors in the Hive Federation are also mentioned in AM Hivers (CT) and in AOTR:H&I (TNE).