Obviously the ancients were a huge part of why the OTU looks the way it does, but how would things have turned out without them? First off, no genetic engineering and transplanting of earth species. So no Vilani, Zhodani, or Vargr. Earth would have been free to develop without running into an already existing imperium. Who would they have run into first- the Aslan or the Hivers? Perhaps some other minor races would have time to develop into major races. What other ways would the lack of ancients have changed things?
The Imperium without the Ancients
- Thread starter mhensley
- Start date
Are you saying no droyne what-so-ever, or simply that the super smart Grandfather never came about? If the droyne where around, but no Grandfather, you have to determine if they had jump without him. If they did, it's likely they would be very widespread as mankind took to the stars, but probably not with an organized widespread government.
Tech might look a bit different, too, since many 'discoveries' like black glober generators were inspired by stuff found at Ancient archeological sites - by 1005 of the TI, would the presiding high tech level be level 15, or would it be more like level 13 or 14?
Tech might look a bit different, too, since many 'discoveries' like black glober generators were inspired by stuff found at Ancient archeological sites - by 1005 of the TI, would the presiding high tech level be level 15, or would it be more like level 13 or 14?
Dave Chase
Mongoose
IMO without Grandfather
The Dryone would have still acted about the same as they did under Grandfather but with out all the cool tech toys.
They would have seen most other races as good tools and work force.
They probably would have been what we consider 3I today with humans being a minor race in their empire.
Might make for a good What If timetravel game.
Dave Chase
The Dryone would have still acted about the same as they did under Grandfather but with out all the cool tech toys.
They would have seen most other races as good tools and work force.
They probably would have been what we consider 3I today with humans being a minor race in their empire.
Might make for a good What If timetravel game.
Dave Chase
The stellar map is going to look a little different, too - during Grandfather's war on his children, stars were blown up, planets destroyed, pocket universes were created, etc.
It's likely that the human empire would be more centered around Sol, and thus sectors like Corridor, Gateway and Spinward Marches would still be unexplored by humans. I believe that Hivers and K'kree probably would have been encountered first. The Aslan would have a lot more territory to expand into without the Zhodani coreward of them.
We really don't know what lies beyond the Zhodani and Vargr either - it's possible there are are other races out there that would have taken their place.
It's likely that the human empire would be more centered around Sol, and thus sectors like Corridor, Gateway and Spinward Marches would still be unexplored by humans. I believe that Hivers and K'kree probably would have been encountered first. The Aslan would have a lot more territory to expand into without the Zhodani coreward of them.
We really don't know what lies beyond the Zhodani and Vargr either - it's possible there are are other races out there that would have taken their place.
I disagree. I just pulled out the Secret of the Ancients adventure - it states that Grandfather invented jump drive, that the droyne were quite content with their planet, civilization and the tech level of 10 they had achieved. Given the 300,000 years before humans reached that same level of tech, it's likely they would have finally developed jump drive, and begun spreading out, but I don't read them as empire builders.Dave Chase said:
More than likely, where they found other races, they simply would have left them alone and gone elsewhere. I can see lots of conflict with the Droyne if other races wanted their territory, but for the most part, I think they would be a "don't bother us, we won't bother you" type of empire.
Travellingdave
Banded Mongoose
Well, without the conservative Vilani Empire, Terran-based technology might actually progress more quickly than in the OTU. Vilani cultural conservatism was often cited as one of the rationales for the more "leisurely" tech progression of the 3I.
I personally doubt the Droyne would form an Empire (IMO). It seems against their racial nature (Grandfather excepted). Also, didn't the Aslan get the Jump Drive from some Solomani refugees or something like that, so they would have to wait for the Terrans to find their homeworld before they could expand.
Hence, it seems likely we'd have a tech-progressive (can you say Transhumanism?), Sol-centered empire/federation that bumps into the Hivers first (maybe during the Hiver/K'Kree war?). The Hivers might try to recruit the Terrans as allies in their war using their social manipulation skills, but the more sophisticated Terrans with their AI consorts may see through them ....
I personally doubt the Droyne would form an Empire (IMO). It seems against their racial nature (Grandfather excepted). Also, didn't the Aslan get the Jump Drive from some Solomani refugees or something like that, so they would have to wait for the Terrans to find their homeworld before they could expand.
Hence, it seems likely we'd have a tech-progressive (can you say Transhumanism?), Sol-centered empire/federation that bumps into the Hivers first (maybe during the Hiver/K'Kree war?). The Hivers might try to recruit the Terrans as allies in their war using their social manipulation skills, but the more sophisticated Terrans with their AI consorts may see through them ....
Travellingdave said:
Good point. So maybe the human empire would have a TL 16-17.
Agreed. But I do think they would be all over the place. Planet fills up, they build a starship and move out to the next uninhabited planet. Repeat.
Did they? I don't recall that. If so, they might have gotten it from the Droyne first. In fact, I think it's likely that the Droyne might give Jump to several minor races, knowningly through trade, or unwittingly through other means.
It's likely humans would join the Hiver side of the war anyway, given the K'kree's attitude towards carnivores. Imagine a few ofthe first humans running into K'kree, smelling like beef, and the K'kree totally slaughtering them.
Travellingdave
Banded Mongoose
At least in terms of computers and biotechnology. We might actually be a little behind that in J-drives and such, since we did benefit from Vilani models in those areas.kristof65 said:
The idea of a Droyne diaspora is kinda cool, although it is unclear whether they would have formed a technologically sophisticated society without Grandfather. He even had to create the Coyn Ceremony to give the Droyne remnants some cultural focus after the Final War, allowing them to rebuild.
Yeah, it was in the Megatraveller book on them -- the Solomani unknowingly gave them the J-Drive. If you accept the idea of a Droyne diaspora, however, it would seem logical that they would provide technological uplift to a great many minor races. Then the waters get rather murky, since we don't know which minor race might jump into some form of local ascendancy. Maybe Terra gets contacted by the Vegan Polity before Terra even develops the J-drive ...
I could see that, assuming the Terrans actually got to meet the K'Kree before the Hivers started putting the moves on us. The K'Kree are a bit farther away ...
Supergamera
Mongoose
kristof65 said:
Maybe, but tech conservatism is a pretty ingrained part of the setting, with or without the Vilani. Most of TL ~11-15 is incremental improvements, rather than major changes. The few examples of races advancing to TL 16 or above all end badly, with exploding planets, induced solar flares, and xenophobic robots.
Without Vilani/Zhodani contact, some of the minor races (Bwaps, Vegans, etc.) could have developed J-drive on their own, although the setting does seem to imply that J-drive is not something everybody who reaches that TL is able to figure out on their own.
Travellingdave
Banded Mongoose
mhensley said:
Because the Vilani had the remnants of the Ancients culture and technology all around them after the Final War. They also had to contend with deranged warbots and such, but they started with a lot of things already known or just waiting to be rediscovered. It kind of gave them a jump-start ... no pun intended.
The Solomani had to do everything from scratch so it took a couple of thousand years longer.
Travellingdave
Banded Mongoose
mhensley said:
Well, that's what the Aslan would certainly like you to believe ...
kafka
Mongoose
Interstellar Wars, anyone? Here is a Traveller milieu that did away with the Ancients pretty well. The artifacts that might be out there are just part of the wierdness of being: "Out There"...Terrans have no idea what the Vilani have come up with over the thousands of years of their civilization and the Vilani have no idea what whizzbang object that the Terrans have developed. And, who cares about these bird-like aliens...it was the Vilani who dispersed alien populations across Chartered Space - take the towelheads for instance. And, the Vilani still scratch their heads at the Solomani instance of taking different lifeforms to the stars...when everyone has their place and should know it too.
Traveller without the Ancients can be fun but part of it is not Traveller anyone more. One way that I that I have had fun was to emphasis the "s" in Ancients. The Ancients refer to the whole phelphora of races that existed around the time of Antiquity not only the Droyne. I once wrote a good sourcebook for the Ancients but that perished in a Hard Drive crash. Essentially, you have to remember that the Droyne were at the breakout point before Grandfather anyhow. So, Grandfather was instrumental in creating the wonders of the Traveller Universe but one can easily do without him...and you will pretty well get the B5 Universe.
Traveller without the Ancients can be fun but part of it is not Traveller anyone more. One way that I that I have had fun was to emphasis the "s" in Ancients. The Ancients refer to the whole phelphora of races that existed around the time of Antiquity not only the Droyne. I once wrote a good sourcebook for the Ancients but that perished in a Hard Drive crash. Essentially, you have to remember that the Droyne were at the breakout point before Grandfather anyhow. So, Grandfather was instrumental in creating the wonders of the Traveller Universe but one can easily do without him...and you will pretty well get the B5 Universe.
Travellingdave
Banded Mongoose
Supergamera said:
IMHO, I don't see technological conservatism as being inherently built in. There's no gauge as to how quickly each tech level might be reached and the Mongoose books are more comfortable pushing things beyond TL15, so the glass ceiling is being lifted a bit.
Still, I do like the idea that beyond TL 18, the Singularity might await to twist any civilization into something totally unrecognizable from anything that existed before. Grandfather may not have been the downfall of the Ancients ...
Hmm - If you go with the concepts of no Grandfather, and a relatively pacifist outlook of the Droyne towards expansion once they get Jump Drive, you can pretty much do anything you want.
Use the same star maps, add back in a few stars to empty spots on it, pick your Droyne homeworld since I don't think that's ever been 100% verified, and figure out how they expanded and who they purposely/unpurposely gave jump to and put your "empires" where you want to.
I'd say it would probably look a lot like the area did after TNE, at least until the Hivers, K'kree, Solomani and possibly Aslan start expanding out - unless you have other races like the Vegan's get in on the act early, too.
Use the same star maps, add back in a few stars to empty spots on it, pick your Droyne homeworld since I don't think that's ever been 100% verified, and figure out how they expanded and who they purposely/unpurposely gave jump to and put your "empires" where you want to.
I'd say it would probably look a lot like the area did after TNE, at least until the Hivers, K'kree, Solomani and possibly Aslan start expanding out - unless you have other races like the Vegan's get in on the act early, too.
kafka
Mongoose
It also occurred to me...that the Droyne without Grandfather can be pretty determined and also are innately psionic and act as a Hive Mind...
This would pretty would pretty well set up a scenario of Childhood's End (Clarke's novel) for much of the races of Chartered Space. Or it could lead to a Rebellion of Humanity against the Empire of the Lizard People...V, anyone?
Traveller does not need the Ancients but they do certainly add a bit of mystery to the game.
This would pretty would pretty well set up a scenario of Childhood's End (Clarke's novel) for much of the races of Chartered Space. Or it could lead to a Rebellion of Humanity against the Empire of the Lizard People...V, anyone?
Traveller does not need the Ancients but they do certainly add a bit of mystery to the game.
IMO, the biggest thing the Ancient's add to the game is the reason for humanity being spread all over that section of the galaxy, and the many variations that result, as well as the Vargr.kafka said:
One thing I really hate about a lot of film and TV based sci-fi is the preponderance of bipedal humanoid 'aliens', particularly ones who can interbreed with Humans. I understand why film and TV do that, but it doesn't make it any less annoying. At least when Traveller did it, they made it make sense.
I love the Vargr, so while I could do without the Ancients and their spreading of humanity, I'd have to figure out a way for the Vargr to still exist.
Dave Chase
Mongoose
During one of our long college days discussions we came up with the idea that there were possibly 8 to 12 Ancients (races or individuals) around the time of Grandfather.
When they met, instead of fighting they divided up the galaxy by its arms with a few staying in the center.
A few joined together, 3 or 4 of them fought. We used that as another reason that unknown to the rest of the world that there was so many ruins and asteriod belts around stars.
(Of course this was something that we came up, long before we found out the 'official' reason for all the destruction by Grandfather)
Dave Chase
When they met, instead of fighting they divided up the galaxy by its arms with a few staying in the center.
A few joined together, 3 or 4 of them fought. We used that as another reason that unknown to the rest of the world that there was so many ruins and asteriod belts around stars.
(Of course this was something that we came up, long before we found out the 'official' reason for all the destruction by Grandfather)
Dave Chase
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