So..... Whos taking Kzinti to the upcoming tournament in UK?
- Thread starter Frankvas
- Start date
logical_proof
Mongoose
Just take Orions with 6 salvage cruisers and a LR, you will have better phasers and 39 drones, plus stealth 6
YaWN! :roll:
Drones are not an "I win" button in this game.
It's called having phasers and advancing under multiple ships having defensive fire.
Neither of these fleets will stand a chance against a competant Fed player. Federation and Klingon fleets can handle both of these example fleets with just only the tinyest bit of luck. ADD's in multiple racks ftw! Just need them to work for a turn or two till I get in photon range!
As a Gorn player I would jump up and down with glee to see the 7 frigate list! At least against frigates I dont have to bolt my plasma's just to do a little damage...not so many phaser three's there....oh yea...and I go defensive fire with every ship and move 12...till I get there and kill you.
Drones are not an "I win" button in this game.
It's called having phasers and advancing under multiple ships having defensive fire.
Neither of these fleets will stand a chance against a competant Fed player. Federation and Klingon fleets can handle both of these example fleets with just only the tinyest bit of luck. ADD's in multiple racks ftw! Just need them to work for a turn or two till I get in photon range!
As a Gorn player I would jump up and down with glee to see the 7 frigate list! At least against frigates I dont have to bolt my plasma's just to do a little damage...not so many phaser three's there....oh yea...and I go defensive fire with every ship and move 12...till I get there and kill you.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Only till they uncloak and once uncloaked going back under cloak is deadly if the Kzinti still have plenty of ships. Cloaks are a killer, a killer of cloaked ships :lol:
With a frigate Zerg against cloaked Roms I would have them all over the place going All power to engines and making like a game of cowboys and indians with the Rom being the wagons.
They can rush into phaser range and plink at one ship, 2+ stealth means one in 6 phasers or disruptors hits but every little helps and since the Roms under cloak are going 6" the Kzinti can move to 15" and fire disruptors and phasers from outside of the 6" uncloak jump/8" plasma optimum range bracket.
Every ship needs to uncloak at once or all those drones just pick on a few ships that uncloak.
To be honest against a Kzinti frigate Zerg leave the cloaks at home and come in with 3rd Gen ships and fight a traditional war.
Anyway who is going for Kzinti, come on confess. THere will be photos and an event report so you will be named and shamed anyway. Confess Kzinti players, Confess :lol:
With a pair (or three) gorn heavies and a trio of BDDs which seems to be settling down to be the standard fleet that is plenty of interlocking phasers plus a few emergency tractors to handle 32 drones a turn. Some will leak through but not enough to kill a decent Gorn ship quickly.
With a frigate Zerg against cloaked Roms I would have them all over the place going All power to engines and making like a game of cowboys and indians with the Rom being the wagons.
They can rush into phaser range and plink at one ship, 2+ stealth means one in 6 phasers or disruptors hits but every little helps and since the Roms under cloak are going 6" the Kzinti can move to 15" and fire disruptors and phasers from outside of the 6" uncloak jump/8" plasma optimum range bracket.
Every ship needs to uncloak at once or all those drones just pick on a few ships that uncloak.
To be honest against a Kzinti frigate Zerg leave the cloaks at home and come in with 3rd Gen ships and fight a traditional war.
Anyway who is going for Kzinti, come on confess. THere will be photos and an event report so you will be named and shamed anyway. Confess Kzinti players, Confess :lol:
deadshane said:
With a pair (or three) gorn heavies and a trio of BDDs which seems to be settling down to be the standard fleet that is plenty of interlocking phasers plus a few emergency tractors to handle 32 drones a turn. Some will leak through but not enough to kill a decent Gorn ship quickly.
Frankvas said:
It is a strong fleet, but also a one-trick one, which tend to not fair so well in CTA
What you want to worry about is not the damage you are doing to the enemy with this fleet, but the damage he is doing to you! You may find those 32 drones start shrinking in number quite quickly...Actually I found a worse fleet,
9 Ortega class Destroyers, Drone version, 990 points 36 drones, good shields that can be reinforced well and good phaser coverage.
It might be a on-trick ponny, but if its a good trick then that's all you need. Don't forget, drones can get 1 or 2 turns of fire before the enemy gets in effective range with them and if your are shooting your phasers at my drones, you aren't shooting them at my ships.
9 Ortega class Destroyers, Drone version, 990 points 36 drones, good shields that can be reinforced well and good phaser coverage.
5 Gorn ships, not sure how ~24 phaser 1 + a couple of 3 are going to stop 36 drones every turn when concentrated against one ship. Statistically 1/6 of your fire will miss, so that's 4 and you had 12 not intercepted, that's 16 * d6 (~48) on one ship (that's 12 more than a BDD needs to be destroyed). I wish I'll be proved wrong. I am looking forwards to seeing battle reports from the tournament.
It is a strong fleet, but also a one-trick one, which tend to not fair so well in CTA
It might be a on-trick ponny, but if its a good trick then that's all you need. Don't forget, drones can get 1 or 2 turns of fire before the enemy gets in effective range with them and if your are shooting your phasers at my drones, you aren't shooting them at my ships.
"5 Gorn ships, not sure how ~24 phaser 1 + a couple of 3 are going to stop 36 drones every turn when concentrated against one ship. Statistically 1/6 of your fire will miss, so that's 4 and you had 12 not intercepted, that's 16 * d6 (~48) on one ship (that's 12 more than a BDD needs to be destroyed). I wish I'll be proved wrong. I am looking forwards to seeing battle reports from the tournament."
It occurs to me that people are forgetting that you only have a 50-50% chance of a given ship making it's roll for "Intensive Defensive Fire". If it blows it's roll, it can't fire against drones targeted on other ships. If the enemy is making the error of targeting all ships equally with those drone factors it won't matter, but that's not a good plan, IMHO. Better to target one or two ships with all those drones.
Say you target 2 BDD with 18 drones each. That leaves 4 ships (BDD and 3 cruisers), 2 of which will statistically blow it's Intensify Defensive fire roll. Are you still sure you can stop 18 drones each? Maybe you will, maybe you won't.
It occurs to me that people are forgetting that you only have a 50-50% chance of a given ship making it's roll for "Intensive Defensive Fire". If it blows it's roll, it can't fire against drones targeted on other ships. If the enemy is making the error of targeting all ships equally with those drone factors it won't matter, but that's not a good plan, IMHO. Better to target one or two ships with all those drones.
Say you target 2 BDD with 18 drones each. That leaves 4 ships (BDD and 3 cruisers), 2 of which will statistically blow it's Intensify Defensive fire roll. Are you still sure you can stop 18 drones each? Maybe you will, maybe you won't.
Iron Domokun
Mongoose
Realistically, they are not going to stop all of those drones. They may not even stop most of them. Yes, you're almost certainly going to inflict some damage on the opposing force with all those drones. The question is, are you wearing him down faster than he wears you down? As Matt pointed out, small ships blow up easily. On the other hand, if he's using IDF! all the time he's not using some other SA, and half the attempts to use IDF! will fail, so drone bombardment while shooting phasers may well work OK. I don't think the drone force is unbeatable but neither do I think the Gorns would walk all over them.
GalagaGalaxian
Mongoose
Aye, losses are inevitable. Just got to get in and let the bloody work be done. I'd rather use All Power to Engines! to rush forward, perhaps turning away towards the end of the move to hopefully dodge a few drones, but with a priority of simply closing the distance as fast as possible. Once I get in close, those fragile Frigates are going to start popping fast.
If this was a stand-alone-match and I knew my opponent was going to try this, I might even include a couple Fast cruisers. They'll close the distance really fast @ 21" under APE!, and will either be enemy-prioritized as sacrificial lambs while there rest of the fleet closes, or manage to get in-tight and raise hell.
Is this a correct or workable tactic? I'm not sure, but it is what I'd try.
If this was a stand-alone-match and I knew my opponent was going to try this, I might even include a couple Fast cruisers. They'll close the distance really fast @ 21" under APE!, and will either be enemy-prioritized as sacrificial lambs while there rest of the fleet closes, or manage to get in-tight and raise hell.
Is this a correct or workable tactic? I'm not sure, but it is what I'd try.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
It does raise a question though. Since it is so easy (and will be easier with the Drone type ships) to have large drone waves why is IDE a crew check.
Shooting a drone across the map is so hard that it takes a crew check????
Breaking down on a high energy turn yes but why so hard to shoot at a drone going at someone else. After all as has been said, if you are using IDE just to survive 30+ incoming drones you are not doing something else.
Shooting a drone across the map is so hard that it takes a crew check????
Breaking down on a high energy turn yes but why so hard to shoot at a drone going at someone else. After all as has been said, if you are using IDE just to survive 30+ incoming drones you are not doing something else.
I do like this part of a new release where people are learning tactics
Seeking weapons are good, very good in fact but there are counter tactics. So as far as countering the OP: (once he starts losing (fragile) ships the drones become much more manageable as well).
Uncloaking (that part is key) Romulans with loaded plasmas uncloaking within 8" of that fleet will cause numerous casualties
Feds, or better Klingons, with ADDs will certainly help
Tholians with their webs will be very effective
Civil war kzintis will also have an equal amount of drones to counter-target your drones
That's just what I came up with in 5 mins or so. Doubtless there are other strategies that will work.
Seeking weapons are good, very good in fact but there are counter tactics. So as far as countering the OP: (once he starts losing (fragile) ships the drones become much more manageable as well).
Uncloaking (that part is key) Romulans with loaded plasmas uncloaking within 8" of that fleet will cause numerous casualties
Feds, or better Klingons, with ADDs will certainly help
Tholians with their webs will be very effective
Civil war kzintis will also have an equal amount of drones to counter-target your drones
That's just what I came up with in 5 mins or so. Doubtless there are other strategies that will work.
GalagaGalaxian
Mongoose
Nerroth said:
Each Tractor beam stops a drone (or shuttle) on an 8 or more via crew quality check. So for the vast majority of military ships (CQ 4) they have 50/50 odds of neutralizing a drone for each tractor beam.
AdmiralGrafSpee
Mongoose
Certainly any fleet that can't deal with hordes of drones is going to go down as soon as they face a Kzinti fleet. Klingon, other Kzinti and Federation fleets are going to be hard to defeat with drones alone.
Drones will allow you to pick off a ship that has strayed a little too far away from others and that has run out/doesn't have ADDs. But your ships are going to have to survive long enough to get that opportunity!
Personally its not my style to spam all of one kind of ship - but if I were to do it with the Kzinti I'd probably pick something like the light cruiser over the frigate. It costs a bit more, but with all those disrupters your going to be able to do a lot of long range pinging while you wait for those ships to go stray.
-Tim
Drones will allow you to pick off a ship that has strayed a little too far away from others and that has run out/doesn't have ADDs. But your ships are going to have to survive long enough to get that opportunity!
Personally its not my style to spam all of one kind of ship - but if I were to do it with the Kzinti I'd probably pick something like the light cruiser over the frigate. It costs a bit more, but with all those disrupters your going to be able to do a lot of long range pinging while you wait for those ships to go stray.
-Tim
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Hopefully the huge drone wave and nothing else fleets will be driven into history by fleets that can defend against them.
What I hope not to see is problems where the plasma chucker side of the verse is at a permanent disadvantage against Kzinti fleets because we cannot handle 20-30 drones a turn and are losing a BDD every turn from turn 1 which kills our only real manoeuvrability.
The Lyran with ESGs with each ESG probably acting like either ADD1 or explosions with reload will have little problems with Drones since you should be able to use the ESG to protect other ships within a few inches making for tight packed Lyran fleets. Methane suckers have Phaser-Gs and fighters.
In open tournaments where you use the same fleet you need to be able to face the Feds, Kzinti and Klinkons with Drones and ADDs to wear down your killer Drone wave, you cannot rely on facing the poor old plasma races every match.
Mr Sprange a question for you if you don’t mind. What is the game reason behind a crew roll for Intensify Defences? It’s not something that has come from SFB where a drone is just another target and any ship in range can shoot at it. Since it looks to be the only viable early game defence against big drone fleets having half your ships not able to use it leaves the Plasma chucker’s either with wrecked DD sized stuff from the beginning or wandering around under cloak and doing nothing much for several turns.
What I hope not to see is problems where the plasma chucker side of the verse is at a permanent disadvantage against Kzinti fleets because we cannot handle 20-30 drones a turn and are losing a BDD every turn from turn 1 which kills our only real manoeuvrability.
The Lyran with ESGs with each ESG probably acting like either ADD1 or explosions with reload will have little problems with Drones since you should be able to use the ESG to protect other ships within a few inches making for tight packed Lyran fleets. Methane suckers have Phaser-Gs and fighters.
In open tournaments where you use the same fleet you need to be able to face the Feds, Kzinti and Klinkons with Drones and ADDs to wear down your killer Drone wave, you cannot rely on facing the poor old plasma races every match.
Mr Sprange a question for you if you don’t mind. What is the game reason behind a crew roll for Intensify Defences? It’s not something that has come from SFB where a drone is just another target and any ship in range can shoot at it. Since it looks to be the only viable early game defence against big drone fleets having half your ships not able to use it leaves the Plasma chucker’s either with wrecked DD sized stuff from the beginning or wandering around under cloak and doing nothing much for several turns.
Assuming the average game table is 4x6 and a reasonably average terrain distribution on the table, most scenarios don't set up right on the edge of the table so I wouldn't see the average drone fleet able to keep any of the close & destroy types at arms length for very long. As other threads have discussed, Gorns may be a bit trickier but just based on playing around so far, Romulans should have a field day with a drone maxed Kzinti fleet even if they have to go six turns or so under cloak.
I have been doing a fair amount of math on this and I believe that this is going to be a noticeable problem in tournament formats. From what I have worked out, the best solution is to drop the crew check for the defensive fire special action. This makes a huge difference for the closing phase, but should leave the Kzinti competitive for a fur ball phase.
Keep in mind when you are thinking about this issue that the Kzinti (or Fed drone destroyers) will not be standing still while you advance and that they are free to use special actions while bombarding your fleet with drones. There is virtually no chance of the Romulans getting a devastating close range plasma round as they uncloak if the Kzinti player does not let them.
I will run tests with the OP on Sunday to see how the math theories hold up.
Keep in mind when you are thinking about this issue that the Kzinti (or Fed drone destroyers) will not be standing still while you advance and that they are free to use special actions while bombarding your fleet with drones. There is virtually no chance of the Romulans getting a devastating close range plasma round as they uncloak if the Kzinti player does not let them.
I will run tests with the OP on Sunday to see how the math theories hold up.