Orbital Fortress "Rubber Ball"

[wbnc]

I think the biggest advantage of a mobile battle station would be that you could manufacture them in a well supplied and secure location. then deploy them as needed to high risk areas.

another distinct advantage would be it can be placed along a chain of supply hubs and move along that chain. If the hubs were placed well outside of a system say several light days or weeks it would be extremely hard to accurately predict where the battle stations were at any given time.

 

[phavoc]

And this is where TCS fails over and over and over since it was first published. Players don't design warships to fit a econic or deployment reality. Players make min/max designs.

And this is why Trillion Credit Squadron failed at my table not once, but a few times. Rather than a fun game of building naval fleets, it devolved into a Min/Max fest.

What's TCS got to do with it?

It's just an interesting idea. If it might work a decent navy should have a way of countering it. That would add to the already long req.spec. a naval architect has to work with.

I wasn't knocking the design. But I was calling out the same logic used to design it as the same logic used to design ships for TCS tournaments. They are one shot wonders that are built for one specific method of attack or defense. If you have followed the old tournaments and the history of TCS you would see the same thing.

Years ago there was a bit of a controversy with the first couple of TCS tournaments designed by a min/max computer program, also using drop tanks, that worked well for a one shot combat, but did not meet normal design parameters for ships that would need to exist beyond a war game event.

 

[Condottiere]

Navies do conceive of and build some oddballs, which sometimes work, and sometimes don't, and then may or may not get modified in order to salvage it.

 

[-Daniel-]

Is that the new Bat Boat? :mrgreen:

 

[Condottiere]

That's the USN trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

They had a Plan B, which unfortunately was just a different version of Plan A.

Plan C appears to gradually evolve it back into a general purpose frigate.

 

[tolcreator]

That's the figurative combat ship. Well they said Littoral combat ship, but it spent so long in development and was redesigned so many times that "figurative" seems more accurate

The problem with TCS, or any wargame where you spend points or money on your army/navy/gibbering hordes, is that practical concerns like "How is this ship fuelled and supplied? What is its mission in peacetime? What is its supply chain of spare parts like? Do you have enough officers and enlisted men and women to crew it? Will its purchase get approved by parliament?" etc. Unless rules like that are built into your design system, you'll always get people who build "to the rules" and produce "unrealistic" or "impossibly over optimised" designs, which others looking to produce something like a real navy will call "min maxed". The problem there is that the latter group must use their best judgement as to what is realistic and balanced, and what is not, so there will be as many judgements as players.

 

[phavoc]

That's the figurative combat ship. Well they said Littoral combat ship, but it spent so long in development and was redesigned so many times that "figurative" seems more accurate

The problem with TCS, or any wargame where you spend points or money on your army/navy/gibbering hordes, is that practical concerns like "How is this ship fuelled and supplied? What is its mission in peacetime? What is its supply chain of spare parts like? Do you have enough officers and enlisted men and women to crew it? Will its purchase get approved by parliament?" etc. Unless rules like that are built into your design system, you'll always get people who build "to the rules" and produce "unrealistic" or "impossibly over optimised" designs, which others looking to produce something like a real navy will call "min maxed". The problem there is that the latter group must use their best judgement as to what is realistic and balanced, and what is not, so there will be as many judgements as players.

Indeed, the LCS series of ships is turning out to be a bit of a boondoggle. Boondoggles seem to be cyclic, however, so we'll have to see what happens. The USN seems hellbent on building the most expensive ships it possibly can. I can't remember a weapons system that actually met it's budget goals... and now we are left with $1 billion dollar destroyers (the size of a cruiser), nearly half billion dollar escorts (not even FF sized), etc, etc. I suspect at some point in the future the USN will have THE most capable carrier, destroyer, frigate and submarine... and it's fleet will consist of exactly four ships.

And you are right about gamers not having to deal with all the issues related to reality in designing ships. Usually the official designs seem to have some trade-offs built into them, though at time I do wonder about the decisions - cruisers with 0 armor is one head scratcher. And counter that with player built ships having 15 armor and particle accelerators in every turret. There is no TWUE right way to do it. I just try to use common sense. Otherwise the first time the PC's get invovled with the authorities they get blown out of the sky with a nuke, cause how else do you hurt factor 15 armor?

 

[Condottiere]

Even battleships have to balance speed, firepower and protection, and in some cases, endurance.

I remember someone stating that he could win an interstellar war just with jump factor one line of battle ships, which sort of brings to mind the Western Front trench strategy.

However, the Virginia (sub)class(es) are reportedly evolving with each batch, below budget, in advance of schedule, to the point that they're wondering if they should bother designing the next generation or just continue with them.

 

[-Daniel-]

... though at time I do wonder about the decisions - cruisers with 0 armor is one head scratcher.

Now that I know they didn't build the ships, but rather just imported specs from past examples, the idea of a ship with zero armor makes sense because it didn't have armor in previous editions of the game. Not sure I would have gone down the same path myself, but it is what it is. So to try and come up with a fluff reason is a waste of time, it has nothing to do with fluff and everything to do with edition cross overs.

 

[Condottiere]

The Gionetti?

In the previous edition, it had factor six armour.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The Gionetti?

In the previous edition, it had factor six armour.

The original in 1981 had no armour, it made no sense then either.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And you are right about gamers not having to deal with all the issues related to reality in designing ships. Usually the official designs seem to have some trade-offs built into them, though at time I do wonder about the decisions - cruisers with 0 armor is one head scratcher.

The official designs are not carefully considered trade-offs, they are a random grab-bag of components.

If you want a large ship to scare the player's Scout they work perfectly.

 

[phavoc]

The official designs are not carefully considered trade-offs, they are a random grab-bag of components.

If you want a large ship to scare the player's Scout they work perfectly.

Not always, no. Which is annoying as well since you look to the "official" canon designs looking to baseline others.

Who needs a ship to scare players? As a GM all I need is too present a maniacal look towards the group and start rolling dice behind the GM screen.... BWHAHAHHAHAHAAAA!!! (really need a way to insert maniacal laughs sometimes!)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Who needs a ship to scare players? As a GM all I need is too present a maniacal look towards the group and start rolling dice behind the GM screen.... BWHAHAHHAHAHAAAA!!! (really need a way to insert maniacal laughs sometimes!)

That is when you really want to scare the players.

I meant if a 400 dT patrol craft tries to pull the players over, they might fight. If a 75 000 dT cruiser stops them, they will be meek (actual stats are not important)...

 

[phavoc]

I meant if a 400 dT patrol craft tries to pull the players over, they might fight. If a 75 000 dT cruiser stops them, they will be meek (actual stats are not important)...

Yeah, sadly a 400Dton ship is likely to get its' ass kicked if it pulls a PC's starship over. A 75k cruiser (the big Corellian kind, not the local bulk ones) should be somewhat of a deterrent... should be...

 

[Condottiere]

I'd get a ship that can make the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs.

 

[wbnc]

I meant if a 400 dT patrol craft tries to pull the players over, they might fight. If a 75 000 dT cruiser stops them, they will be meek (actual stats are not important)...

Yeah, sadly a 400Dton ship is likely to get its' ass kicked if it pulls a PC's starship over. A 75k cruiser (the big Corellian kind, not the local bulk ones) should be somewhat of a deterrent... should be...

yeah they ca beat a 400 tonner, but after one or two such wins then they start coming after you in groups. Or they wait till you jump into a system and the entire system defense squadron comes after you.

 

[-Daniel-]

I meant if a 400 dT patrol craft tries to pull the players over, they might fight. If a 75 000 dT cruiser stops them, they will be meek (actual stats are not important)...

Yeah, sadly a 400Dton ship is likely to get its' ass kicked if it pulls a PC's starship over. A 75k cruiser (the big Corellian kind, not the local bulk ones) should be somewhat of a deterrent... should be...

yeah they ca beat a 400 tonner, but after one or two such wins then they start coming after you in groups. Or they wait till you jump into a system and the entire system defense squadron comes after you.

Speaking from experience it sounds like. :wink:

 

[wbnc]

Yeah, sadly a 400Dton ship is likely to get its' ass kicked if it pulls a PC's starship over. A 75k cruiser (the big Corellian kind, not the local bulk ones) should be somewhat of a deterrent... should be...

yeah they ca beat a 400 tonner, but after one or two such wins then they start coming after you in groups. Or they wait till you jump into a system and the entire system defense squadron comes after you.

Speaking from experience it sounds like. :wink:

Ya bet yer butt it was. I was along for the ride as an Engineer on that little fiasco.

first two P-types were stripped of weapons and ammo then left floating in space. Two more patrol ships get pushed into a star when they figured out the data recorders and survivors were able to report the ship that they had engaged.

then six {-types with a definite grudge jump our ship. yeah they couldn't prove it was our ship that destroyed the last two but they had a real good hunch who it was. so the ship runs for it's life back to a backwater system we wee using as base of operations. four Patrol boats ambushed them as soon as they entered the system.

Although I was successful in pulling off 'Hey they "shanghaied me off on a ship they attacked" defense. thanks to some clever tricks with the lock on my stateroom, and a crudely fashioned "explosive collar" hidden away from the other crewmemebers when I saw the writing on the wall, and hastily put on as the ship was boarded.

 

[-Daniel-]

Although I was successful in pulling off 'Hey they "shanghaied me off on a ship they attacked" defense. thanks to some clever tricks with the lock on my stateroom, and a crudely fashioned "explosive collar" hidden away from the other crewmemebers when I saw the writing on the wall, and hastily put on as the ship was boarded.

Sounds like some "fun" times around the old table, that one does.

Smart move with the collar too. :mrgreen: