Size of naval fuel depot

Pyromancer

Mongoose
Imagine you are some decision maker in the Imperial navy. Your astrographers have, by chance, located a system of ultra-cool brown dwarfs that are very, very hard to find and are cool enough to skim for fuel. The system is conveniently placed between a major naval base and "the enemy", so you want to build a fuel depot there. How big would you build it, ie. how much fuel would be stored there when it is full?
 
Depends.

No really, the depot would be sized to the need of the vessels to be served. Is it serving as a patrol point or the anchor for a marshalling area of a future massive invasion? The bigger the base located there can also means the more noticeable it becomes especially since you stated its importance near the enemy.

You mention the BD is skimmable. Does this mean that will be the favored method of fueling rather than using facilities at the depot. That could mean the depot is more an orbiting defense and maintenance yard. Once again it's size will be determined by the fleets' needs from regular repairs to a base for damaged warships returning from the front.
 
Reynard said:
Depends.

No really, the depot would be sized to the need of the vessels to be served. Is it serving as a patrol point or the anchor for a marshalling area of a future massive invasion? The bigger the base located there can also means the more noticeable it becomes especially since you stated its importance near the enemy.
It should be able to support fleet action into enemy territory. My problem is that I have no idea how big a reasonable fleet (not a full size invasion force) should be.

You mention the BD is skimmable. Does this mean that will be the favored method of fueling rather than using facilities at the depot. That could mean the depot is more an orbiting defense and maintenance yard. Once again it's size will be determined by the fleets' needs from regular repairs to a base for damaged warships returning from the front.

The idea is that the station itself can refuel the fleet, so that they don't have to dive into the gravity well. The station refills its tanks with its own skimming vessels over the course of weeks. The selling point is that the fuel doesn't have to be jumped in.
 
My advice would be to think about what you would consider a good-sized fleet to be. Is it, for example, six Tigresses plus a dozen cruisers, twenty-ish destroyers, four fleet carriers, sixty tenders, and a few score couriers. Plus tanker support? Or something more modest? This is something that really only you can answer.

Whatever you come up with, tot up the fuel requirements and give your station that much storage plus 30%. And I'd build in skimming and refining assets to refill from zero within three to five weeks. Don't neglect maintenence, spare parts storage, and a small fleet organic to the station (in case they need to evacuate or run for supplies or personnel). Just as a real-world naval base is a city unto itself, this type of space facility would need everything it needs to function (especially since it is sooper-sikrit and can't depend on regular traffic).
 
Much depends on the 'enemy', as that will drive the fleet deployment. A squadron of Tigresses would be ill used against Vargr raiders, just like a few squadrons of destroyers would be poor choices against mainline Zho battle units.

But as mentioned up-thread, you have a couple of choices. Is the expectation that a friendly fleet will jump in, refuel immediately, and then jump out? If so then you size your tankage to supply the entire battle unit, as well as their fleet train out of existing fuel stores. The other part of the question is what kind of operational tempo do you expect? A single fleet passing through, or multiple fleets coming in regularly? If it's the latter then you'd probably double your existing storage base and provide enough resources to replinish everything within a week or so of skimming.

And are you going to make this fuel depot a regular naval base, or more of an auxillary? Primary base would more likely have more of everything. A depot that may, or may not get used, would be more of a lightly manned and defended gas station that once you drained it could take weeks to replenish. Their isn't really an exact answer, as there are too many variables to be answered.

Worst case scenario you assume a fuel depot able to totally refuel a passing squadron of battleships (4), plus escorts and fleet train (say at least 8 CA, 12 DDs... not sure what to put in the fleet train, but say 25% of the fuel requirements of your battle fleet). The base itself should have it's own protectors and defense (CL's, DD's, plus fighters) as well as sufficient refueling capabiliites to skim enough hydrogen to replenish it's tanks within 72hrs. More than likely you'll have additional fleet stores and spares there, with maybe even a light repair capability.

Something like that will be sufficient for pretty much all examples. And not cheap!
 
"Very, very hard to find" fuel sources are golden gooses, especially if they have strategic significance. This depot should be as small as it can be to service fast, heavily armed strike vessels in small groups that can reach in, hit hard then get out via another route if at all possible. Just a few sorties to minimize risk of discovery, unsettle the enemy without giving them enough to figure out what's going on. Grow the facility's capabilities as quickly and quietly as possible. Turn away a strike group or two if you have to.

When the Imps are ready to deliver the killing stroke, send a fast courier to let the depot know to ramp up production and reserves, send in a big battle group to top off and then hit really hard. Maintain accelerated production and reserves for the fleet's return so they can immediately jump out again to an 'expected' location and minimize the risk of the secret depot being found.

So start small and quiet, then grow if the winds blow in your favor. If things are going against you, stay small and use the depot for scout, surveillance and spy (PC?) vessels.
 
The fuel depot is located at the border of the Solomani Autonomous Region. Planning started before the Solomani Rim War, but construction wasn't finished when the war broke out.
 
Had to reread the hypothesis again then read Naval depot in LBB 9 then thought this through. Your first consideration was this system is super secret because somehow the brown dwarves are undetectable then they are also goldilocks in composition as perfect fuel sources. You actually refer to a fuel rather than a naval depot. Is that the case, this is a site to 'top off' the tanks and marshal rather than full depot capabilities? Is this a very lucky back door to the enemy?

It sounds as if the main purpose is a one time launch point in a direction the enemy would consider unreachable to average fleet ranges. If that's the case ships don't need a fueling station which would have to be massive and therefore very costly in time and resources which would need to be shipped in. When the fleet prepares for invasion, they rally at the BD, refuel all ships including tankers then jump out. They can take all the time allotted since the enemy has no clue.

They don't really need the system again as the point of invasion is to capture the enemy's system and use fuel sources there to continue. At best the BD system is a safe haven for ships fleeing without the enemy having a clue where they went. They refuel and head deeper into friendly territory for repairs.
 
If brown dwarves exist in someone's Traveller Universe, they would be extensively scanned for and mapped. Problem is they are, in fact, detectable at range and the range can't be too far for a normal fleet to be able to jump. We know about a BD binary system, Luhman 16 which is 6.5 lys from Sol and there was speculation for a third non-BD body orbiting one of the BDs. That could be an excellent example for pyromancer's system.
 
Pyromancer said:
It should be able to support fleet action into enemy territory. My problem is that I have no idea how big a reasonable fleet (not a full size invasion force) should be.

Heh, see Yet another of the Traditional Traveller Discussions. This one is 25 years old.....
 
To go th the original question;

Pyromancer said:
Imagine you are some decision maker in the Imperial navy. Your astrographers have, by chance, located a system of ultra-cool brown dwarfs that are very, very hard to find and are cool enough to skim for fuel. The system is conveniently placed between a major naval base and "the enemy", so you want to build a fuel depot there. How big would you build it, ie. how much fuel would be stored there when it is full?

A few thoughts,

If my Sensor Boffins can find the cluster so can theirs. As such how big a force do I need to keep in the area to defend it? Do you want to invest the system with forts and mine fields or just keep a refueling fleet stationed there along with their defenders? Are there any handy rocks or asteroid belts to hide in/build a covert base in?

Are you playing in a big ship or little ship universe? The difference is a couple of orders of Magnitude....

When I think of refueling stations/caches, I tend to think of remote rocks spread throughout my Area of Operations, that are both fuel and munitions caches. Every task force commander and maybe Astrogation staff have a list, to be used a fall back/rallying positions. And no 2 lists are the same...
 
Real surprises are achieved as when the Cylons used tankers to refuel their Raiders to ambush the Colonial Fleet, while the Base Stars nuke the Colonies.
 
Pyromancer said:
The fuel depot is located at the border of the Solomani Autonomous Region. Planning started before the Solomani Rim War, but construction wasn't finished when the war broke out.

It'd have an enormous amount of fuel, probably in the range of the "multiple squadrons of battleships, supporting squadrons of cruisers and smaller ships whose fuel needs are many times that of the battleships."

If the Imperium was concerned about war with the SAR, they'd be well-aware that the Solomani would have a significant fleet, so they'd probably have to sortie in force.

That said, I doubt by the time of the Solomani Rim War that anything of significant size (like brown dwarfs) would have gone undetected. They've had millennia to scan down anything of significant size like this and mark them, track them, and put them on star charts. However, given the number of objects that could be refuelled off of, it'd say it would be impossible for the Solomani (or the Imperium, honestly) to have a pair of patrol cruisers visit each of them on a consistent basis (say, more than once every six months, probably longer). They certainly wouldn't have pickets at them unless they were expecting them to take that route for an invasion, so your base idea has merit.

I think a base like this wouldn't be a static installation - because both sides would visit worlds like this; probably at least once a year (it might be what the ISS does with all those Scout ships in the hemmed-in Imperium) just to see what's going on. Visits would increase with the rise in tensions, but it takes a week for a ship to make a jump - so I'd imagine you'd still have months between sweeps, otherwise the logistical footprint (patrol ships, their crews, their maintenance requirements) would be enormous given all the possible objects people might set up a base at.

A fueler might not be jump-capable. In which case it'd be towed in by a more capable "tug" type ship. Such a fueling station would be self-contained, either using contra-grav to hide itself in the atmosphere of the world to evade casual scans or perhaps it might even bury itself on a moon temporarily. But temporary would be the key. However, if the facility were detected, it might have a Jump-capable escape ship on it, or ships, depending.

More likely it seems like something like a converted outdated Battle Tender would probably be ideal -- a huge jump-capable framework. It'd have collapsible fuel tanks to hold all the fuel tankage. While it could jump with a whole lot of purified fuel, it couldn't jump at maximum fuel storage, so if it was detected or needed to leave in a hurry, it'd either drop the excess tanks or jettison the fuel in the bladders out into space before making a quick Jump out of there. The ship would be serviced by many skimmers (since it isn't able to skim itself). These ships would double as oilers to deliver the fuel to starships. Probably after a few bad experiences, these tenders would be Jump capable themselves (to just Jump-1 - it's not like anyone is ever going to catch a Jump-1 ship with enough fuel to jump a half dozen times on a single "tank") so they can bug out on their own if their tender has to suddenly leave.

The ship should be able to fuel up a fixed (but large) number of ships at full capacity; the number would be set by some sort of algorithm determined by the average fleet deployment - perhaps the breakdown would be three BatRons (battleship squadrons) plus their supporting ships - there's little reason to deploy a ship like this for a smaller scale deployment. If there's more ships, the Navy would simply add more fuel tenders. The ship could purify enough fuel to reach maximum capacity in two weeks at worst. The ship would have facilities sufficient for the crews of the skimmers and the tender itself to live on for some weeks (it'd have consumables supplied by other ships).

Of course, such an interesting facility would probably suffer from mission creep, but let's not go there.

If your scenario involves an abandoned facility of this type, it's entirely likely the fueler suffered some sort of breakdown or even an attack and it was abandoned. Militaries are inherently inefficient, wartime ones especially so. For whatever reason, it was simply written off and nobody bothered to go back to salvage it.
 
It might be a likely flashpoint, as both sides start committing forces to take or destroy the system facilities.

Henderson Field, in essence.
 
In classic traveller this setup was common in the Reft/Rift regions. However rather than use magically undetectable planets, they would build the depot in deep space and fill it from tankers.

If you have brown dwarfs present, you don't need to store that much refined fuel. Military squadrons should be able to fuel skim. It makes strategic sense to have this ability.

What you might want to store at your depot is not fuel, but drop tanks. Ships could use the additional fuel in the tanks to jump without eating into their internal fuel tankage, allowing them to jump again. Perhaps building a small repair depot may also be of use.

The other traditional method would be to build a tanker chain.
 
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