Singularity Errata
- Thread starter Terry Mixon
- Start date
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
@paltrysum, I'm looking at the Singularity rules for attracting passengers and have questions that will lead to suggested clarifications.
1. The process seems straightforward, except for where it mentions "The Effect of a Very Difficult (12+ Broker, Carous, or Diplomat Check."
I'm not sure how that comes into play. It's a 2D roll with the modifiers listed, isn't it? That's what it says above, anyway. If it is an effect of the listed skills, then the text above should change to reflect that. It is one or the other, not both, right? In any case, this is confusing and likely should be clarified.
2. Is the roll for a combined set of high and luxury passengers or one roll for each group? That makes a difference and should be clarified as well.
1. The process seems straightforward, except for where it mentions "The Effect of a Very Difficult (12+ Broker, Carous, or Diplomat Check."
I'm not sure how that comes into play. It's a 2D roll with the modifiers listed, isn't it? That's what it says above, anyway. If it is an effect of the listed skills, then the text above should change to reflect that. It is one or the other, not both, right? In any case, this is confusing and likely should be clarified.
2. Is the roll for a combined set of high and luxury passengers or one roll for each group? That makes a difference and should be clarified as well.
This is probably a weird nitpick, but I think the luxury passenger prices are too low.
Here's my math...
If each luxury stateroom requires 12.5 tons for the room and common space, 2 tons storage, 5 tons for a private steward cabin and common space, you're using 19.5 tons per luxury cabin.
If you compare other options, high staterooms end up average 9 tons each (assuming 1 steward cabin for every 10), High passage is 6 tons (plus steward every ten) standard is 5 tons per passenger, basic is 2.5 tons per passenger, low berth is .5 per passenger and requires 1 ton power for every 150.
Let's imagine a 100 ton passenger module featuring nothing but the tonnage required for the above accommodation, doing a jump 1 transit every two weeks. We'd see the following hypothetical returns...
1.
(*wages are 2 level 1 stewards for high passage, 1 for high staterooms and the 5 level 2 stewards for luxury passage)
(**life support costs include steward rooms and steward life support where applicable)
Despite requiring significantly more time, space and attention, luxury passengers provide a much smaller return on investment than even standard passenger fare, and High Stateroom fare, which should be more profitable than the High Passage rate, ends up falling under it. Lets see what it gives us at the other jump levels...
2.
3.
As you can see, the luxury and high wages offer increasingly small returns on investment as we go down the table, and soon High Stateroom returns have also fallen below the others.
To save you some math, consider the following options as a solution...
We don't have the full rules for Liner Routes so I can't make accurate assessments on the math on that. If it's based on luxury prices, maybe increase the 16,000 rate by 1.5x to reflect the new rates? If it's based on the High stateroom rate, bump it by 1.25, but then we have the issue of the example discount rate of 16,000/parsec being more expensive than the price of an actual high ticket, so I'm not sure how that is intended to work. Is the discount rate just for Luxury passengers? Is there a different rate for High passengers?
This is all if my math is correct, of course. Just figured I'd bring it up now while things are still malleable.
Here's my math...
If each luxury stateroom requires 12.5 tons for the room and common space, 2 tons storage, 5 tons for a private steward cabin and common space, you're using 19.5 tons per luxury cabin.
If you compare other options, high staterooms end up average 9 tons each (assuming 1 steward cabin for every 10), High passage is 6 tons (plus steward every ten) standard is 5 tons per passenger, basic is 2.5 tons per passenger, low berth is .5 per passenger and requires 1 ton power for every 150.
Let's imagine a 100 ton passenger module featuring nothing but the tonnage required for the above accommodation, doing a jump 1 transit every two weeks. We'd see the following hypothetical returns...
1.
- 198 low berth passengers at 700cr/jump is 277,200cr/month - 19,800 life support = 257,400cr/month
- 40 basic passengers at 2,000cr/jump is 160,000cr/month - 60,000 life support = 100,000cr/month
- 20 standard passengers at 6,500cr/jump is 260,000cr/month - 40,000 life support = 220,000cr/month
- 15 high passage at 9,000cr/jump is 270,000cr/month - 40,000 life support** - 4000 wages* = 265,000cr/month
- 11 high staterooms at 12,000cr/jump is 264,000cr/month - 46,000 life support** - 2,000 wages* = 216,000cr/month
- 5 luxury staterooms at 20,000cr/jump is 200,000cr/month - 44,000 life support** - 15,000 wages* = 141,000cr/month
(*wages are 2 level 1 stewards for high passage, 1 for high staterooms and the 5 level 2 stewards for luxury passage)
(**life support costs include steward rooms and steward life support where applicable)
Despite requiring significantly more time, space and attention, luxury passengers provide a much smaller return on investment than even standard passenger fare, and High Stateroom fare, which should be more profitable than the High Passage rate, ends up falling under it. Lets see what it gives us at the other jump levels...
2.
- 198 low berth passengers at 1,300cr/jump is 514,800cr/month - 19,800 life support = 495,000cr/month
- 40 basic passengers at 3,000cr/jump is 240,000cr/month - 60,000 life support = 180,000cr/month
- 20 standard passengers at 10,000cr/jump is 400,000cr/month - 40,000 life support = 360,000cr/month
- 15 high passage at 14,000cr/jump is 420,000cr/month - 32,000 life support** - 4000 wages* = 368,000cr/month
- 11 high staterooms at 20,000cr/jump is 440,000cr/month - 46,000 life support** - 2,000 wages* = 392,000cr/month
- 5 luxury staterooms at 33,000cr/jump is 330,000cr/month - 45,000 life support** - 15,000 wages* = 270,000cr/month
3.
- 198 low berth passengers at 2,200cr/jump is 514,800cr/month - 19,800 life support = 851,400cr/month
- 40 basic passengers at 5,000cr/jump is 400,000cr/month - 60,000 life support = 340,000cr/month
- 20 standard passengers at 14,000cr/jump is 560,000cr/month - 40,000 life support = 560,000cr/month
- 15 high passage at 21,000cr/jump is 630,000cr/month - 32,000 life support** - 4000 wages* = 578,000cr/month
- 11 high staterooms at 27,000cr/jump is 594,000cr/month - 46,000 life support** - 2,000 wages* = 546,000cr/month
- 5 luxury staterooms at 44,000cr/jump is 440,000cr/month - 45,000 life support** - 15,000 wages* = 380,000cr/month
- 198 low berth passengers at 3,900cr/jump is 1,544,400cr/month - 19,800 life support = 1,524,600 cr/month
- 40 basic passengers at 8,000cr/jump is 640,000cr/month - 60,000 life support = 580,000cr/month
- 20 standard passengers at 23,000cr/jump is 920,000cr/month - 40,000 life support = 880,000cr/month
- 15 high passage at 34,000cr/jump is1,020,000cr/month - 32,000 life support** - 4000 wages* = 984,000cr/month
- 11 high staterooms at 37,000cr/jump is 814,000cr/month - 46,000 life support** - 2,000 wages* = 766,000cr/month
- 5 luxury staterooms at 62,000cr/jump is 620,000cr/month - 45,000 life support** - 15,000 wages* =560,000cr/month
- 198 low berth passengers at 7,200cr/jump is 2,851,200 cr/month - 19,800 life support = 2,831,400 cr/month
- 40 basic passengers at 14,000cr/jump is 1,120,000cr/month - 60,000 life support = 1,060,000 cr/month
- 20 standard passengers at 40,000cr/jump is 1,600,000 cr/month - 40,000 life support = 1,560,000cr/month
- 15 high passage at 60,000cr/jump is 1,800,000cr/month - 32,000 life support** - 4000 wages* = 1,760,000cr/month
- 11 high staterooms at 60,000cr/jump is 1,320, 000 cr/month - 46,000 life support** - 2,000 wages* = 1,272,000 cr/month
- 5 luxury staterooms at 98,000cr/jump is 980,000cr/month - 45,000 life support** - 15,000 wages* = 920,000cr/month
- 198 low berth passengers at 27,000cr/jump is 10,692,000cr/month - 19,800 life support = 10,672,200 cr/month
- 40 basic passengers at 55,000cr/jump is 4,400,000cr/month - 60,000 life support = 4,340,000cr/month
- 20 standard passengers at 130,000cr/jump is 5,200,000cr/month - 40,000 life support = 5,160,000 cr/month
- 15 high passage at 210,000cr/jump is 6,300,000cr/month - 32,000 life support** - 4000 wages* = 6,264,000cr/month
- 11 high staterooms at 175,000cr/jump is 3,850,000 cr/month - 46,000 life support** - 2,000 wages* = 3,802,000cr/month
- 5 luxury staterooms at 295,000cr/jump is 2,950,000cr/month - 45,000 life support** - 15,000 wages* = 2,890,000 cr/month
As you can see, the luxury and high wages offer increasingly small returns on investment as we go down the table, and soon High Stateroom returns have also fallen below the others.
To save you some math, consider the following options as a solution...
| Parsecs | High Stateroom | Lux Stateroom | New High Stateroom total | New Lux Stateroom Total |
| 1 | 15,000 | 36,000 | 282,000cr/month | 300,000cr/month |
| 2 | Keep at 20,000 | 47,000 | 392,000cr/month | 410,000cr/month |
| 3 | 49,000 | 68,000 | 590,000cr/month | 620,000cr/month |
| 4 | 52,000 | 125,000 | 1,096,000cr/month | 1,190,000 cr/month |
| 5 | 88,000 | 200,000 | 1,888,000cr/month | 1,940,000cr/month |
| 6 | 320,000 | 750,000 | 6,992,000cr/month | 7,440,000cr/month |
We don't have the full rules for Liner Routes so I can't make accurate assessments on the math on that. If it's based on luxury prices, maybe increase the 16,000 rate by 1.5x to reflect the new rates? If it's based on the High stateroom rate, bump it by 1.25, but then we have the issue of the example discount rate of 16,000/parsec being more expensive than the price of an actual high ticket, so I'm not sure how that is intended to work. Is the discount rate just for Luxury passengers? Is there a different rate for High passengers?
This is all if my math is correct, of course. Just figured I'd bring it up now while things are still malleable.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Thanks for spelling this out so clearly.
Having just built several liners with the numbers in Singularity already, I can confirm that luxury passengers are a worse deal than high, and high are worse than middle for return for the reasons above.
To support luxury passengers, a company has to make a large outlay in support and amenities snd the returns don’t make that possible. If a company can earn more from serving scads of middle passengers, there will be no premiere liners.
I, too, suggest a bump is needed for High and Luxury or there is no drive to provide for those levels of passengers because middle will have a greater return for the company every time and are likely easier to find in quantity.
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MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Based on what I am looking at in these numbers, I would fill a ship with @Terry Mixon 's Low Berths with a 100% reawakening rate and Scrooge MacDuck with the money I'd be making. Barely even need to talk to the passengers. lolz.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
MixCorp thanks you for your business!
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Here is a liner to test the income for a ship full of middle, high, and luxury passengers.
Middle (80 passengers): Brings in KCr204 per maintenance period. No fancy kitchen, but they get a basic theater and hot tubs.
High (43 passengers): Brings in KCr332 per maintenance period. Gourmet kitchen that can feed half of them at a time, advanced theater for 1/4 and hot tubs.
Luxury (21 passengers): Loses KCr52 per maintenance period. Gourmet kitchen that can feed everyone at the same time, advanced theater for all and hot tubs for all.
Middle (80 passengers): Brings in KCr204 per maintenance period. No fancy kitchen, but they get a basic theater and hot tubs.
High (43 passengers): Brings in KCr332 per maintenance period. Gourmet kitchen that can feed half of them at a time, advanced theater for 1/4 and hot tubs.
Luxury (21 passengers): Loses KCr52 per maintenance period. Gourmet kitchen that can feed everyone at the same time, advanced theater for all and hot tubs for all.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
The World, Residences at Sea A One-of-a-Kind Ship - The World
FORT LAUDERDALE, FLORIDA – The World is the largest private residential yacht on earth where its Residents travel the globe without ever leaving home. This
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
If I used a larger ship, it might not be so disastrous. The high still did outpace the middle, even when adding some amenities, but that may be an artifact of a small ship size.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Okay, I've made variants of an obnoxiously large J6 liner I modeled on cruise ships. My initial one was aimed at the High Passage market, but now there are variants for Luxury and Middle passengers. The liner is 250,000-tons, so, like I said, ridiculous but I like building ships. 
Imagine them tootling around the Core sector.
I left them with mostly the same amenities but added more for the luxury version as the details will show. I bumped the ships to only a five-day layover and made them purchase unrefined fuel to process.
As you'll see, each level of passage drops the profit margin rather than raising it. The large ship means that the ancillary stuff is lost in the weeds, and the true profit curve rears its head. It should be going the other way so there is a problem.
Middle (6,850 passengers): BCr1.685 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
High (4,200 passengers): BCr1.32 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
Luxury (2,150 passengers): BCr1.081 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
Imagine them tootling around the Core sector.I left them with mostly the same amenities but added more for the luxury version as the details will show. I bumped the ships to only a five-day layover and made them purchase unrefined fuel to process.
As you'll see, each level of passage drops the profit margin rather than raising it. The large ship means that the ancillary stuff is lost in the weeds, and the true profit curve rears its head. It should be going the other way so there is a problem.
Middle (6,850 passengers): BCr1.685 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
High (4,200 passengers): BCr1.32 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
Luxury (2,150 passengers): BCr1.081 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Did you account for crew reduction due to size?Okay, I've made variants of an obnoxiously large J6 liner I modeled on cruise ships. My initial one was aimed at the High Passage market, but now there are variants for Luxury and Middle passengers. The liner is 250,000-tons, so, like I said, ridiculous but I like building ships.
I left them with mostly the same amenities but added more for the luxury version as the details will show. I bumped the ships to only a five-day layover and made them purchase unrefined fuel to process.
As you'll see, each level of passage drops the profit margin rather than raising it. The large ship means that the ancillary stuff is lost in the weeds, and the true profit curve rears its head. It should be going the other way so there is a problem.
Middle (6,850 passengers): BCr1.685 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
View attachment 4872
High (4,200 passengers): BCr1.32 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
View attachment 4874
Luxury (2,150 passengers): BCr1.081 profit after expenses in a 4-week maintenance period, if one could fill it.
View attachment 4875
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
The spreadsheet does, yes.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Now the interesting question. Does crew reduction apply to Stewards?
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
No. Engineers, mechanics, gunners, and sensops.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Machinery related, rather than personnel.
If you have configurable staterooms, you can have the correct number of luxury staterooms, to correspond to the number of such passages booked.
Which sounds more profitable than upgrading over booked high passages.
If you have configurable staterooms, you can have the correct number of luxury staterooms, to correspond to the number of such passages booked.
Which sounds more profitable than upgrading over booked high passages.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Just curious since Stewards do the cooking and cooking for 10 people doesn't require anymore cooks than cooking for 1 person, so I figured that the crew reduction may apply to them as well.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Depends on whether someone is supervising robots making sandwiches, or need a gourmet chef.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
They have Gourmet Chefs in the Robot book. lol
boggo2300
Cosmic Mongoose
someone buying a Luxury berth is NOT going to put up with a mere robot cook thank you very much!, thats the sort of second rate service you expect from a high-passage
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