Ship Hulls For Tanks - Pocket Empire - Arguing W/The Foolish

So this is a rigorously homogenistic society where everone shares the same values and ideals, with little or no social or political drift.

Why does such as setup work for this society, when every attempt to create a command economy based on a unified ideological system has been a miserable failure? What did these people get right, that all the others got wrong? Historicaly command economy systems like this have always been extremely inefficient. Homogenous social systems only ever worked through a system of brutal repression to force everyone to keep to the same ideological system.

Human beings naturaly change their minds about things, come to differing conclusions about the best ways to do things and choose their own way of life. Historicaly the only way to prevent that is force. Why isn't that necessery in this society?

For example, this system is a democracy. Suppose a charismatic leader arose who passed all the inteligence tests, but argued that he had come up with a much betetr way to organise society to make it more efficient. Suppose he persuaded a lot of people and sarted a reform movement. What would stop him from changign everything? Suppose he was a pacifist? Even if such a person didn't win all the election, could they becoem an influential and transformative force in society? If anyone that passes the tsts can becoem a leader, what prevents radical political and social change from happening?

Simon Hibbs
 
Interesting debate (if a bit off topic - didn't this start about grav-tanks?)

This all came from an idea I had; what if you had a government without amonetary economy, but instead had a resource based economy. Then the only constraints for building anything would be time, physical resources, and the desire or need to do so. This would also eliminate the root cause of for the evential demise of all republics... Fiscal irresponsibility.

Still, as noted, ultimately an economy. There must somewhere be a notional common agreement that says that A tons of B is worth X tons of Y, or you'd have one hell of a time making that trade with uncle bob's wheat. Since you'd probably transfer ownership with a record in a computer file, how is that not a 'coin' at a fairly fundamental level?

The Needs/Wants/Everyone working together is a utopian concept; the key problem comes when there is a major disagreement - note, I'm not saying corruption, just honest disagreement - about what qualifies as a need vs a want, and what happens when there isn't enough resources to meet every want (or every need). Who gets priority? Because any criteria you may chose to make that choice will be unfair to someone.

Case in point:

Their economy is extremely efficient. If for example grav cars are invented, each member of [congress] goes back to their [constituants] and asks each nuclear familly...How many grav cars do you need, and how many do you want? The numbers go back to [congress] who then allocated the resourses for production. Orders for types and features are taken then production is started. If a lot of cars are needed right away, then large portions of the population are mobilized and trained for the task.

After the need is fulfilled, production is scalled down to per order levels.

Okay.....that means putting most of the grav car workers (and suppliers) out of work (at least for their NEEDS job). So what's done with them?



The alternative would be an extremely affluent society where robots and
machines do all the work and produce all the goods, and artificial intelli-
gences plan and coordinate the entire economy - a society where humans
have nothing to do but enjoy their wealth. Unfortunately such a society
would also require a completely different human "mindset", because the
complete lack of meaning and sense would otherwise drive the citizens
of this society into madness, and instead of more quality of life the re-
sult would be either attempts to escape this "paradise" or a high level of
suicides where escape would be impossible.

Reference Ian M Banks "The Culture" - a perfect example of this, albeit one where humanity has psychologically adapted to cope. Mostly.

Candidates are selected based on merit and skill, then voted on by the people.
Interesting question - since "government/civil service" is arguably a NEEDS role, when you say selected, are they volunteers or are they drafted?


Why does such as setup work for this society, when every attempt to create a command economy based on a unified ideological system has been a miserable failure? What did these people get right, that all the others got wrong?

If I had to make a suggestion - extreme trust in AI. The key failing tends to be human nature - Since Solomani666 has been setting his pocket empire at TL16ish, the ability to take it out of the decision making process as much as possible may help in ways that haven't been available in previous cases.


One thing to note - excelling at a warrior role in a high TL society is a difficult thing. Military training throughout the teens is one thing, but then you have to ask what else in a child/teenager's makeup suffers; if this is the same period when they're expected to be extrovert pranksters trying to make a reputation for themselves, for example, then that is a societal pressure in direct conflict with military discipline.

Equally, at TL16, being good with a knife is fine for honour duels. It is most emphatically not much use in a true military situation - being a battledress-wearing, PGMP wielding, secure comms using infantryman is a complex and respectable professional trade - you can do it part-time but the readiness and competence of your infantry will suffer if you do. Okay, you can exempt them from NEEDS work partly or fully. But that then raises the question about who else gets exempted. Emergency Services?
Okay, how about the support personnel to the emergency services?

The problem with any exemption, relaxed restrictions, or special permissions is that they have a tendancy to salami-slice their way through society over the generations.
 
The society seems no more improbable than Star Trek, and I don't remember ST being subject to this level of scrutiny and criticism.

FWIW,
His answer to my question/comment about social motivation convinced me that he had at least thought it out far enough to offer a plausible explanation. That's better than most Sci-fi concepts get and IMO passes the smell test.

Solomani666 has nothing to prove to me - I'm willing to accept his society as at least possible.
 
Star Trek and the Culture both have their get-out-of-jail free card that they can essentially make anything out of anything else anywhere.

I'm more interested rather than looking for criticism - hence the suggestion about AIs running things, and the question about whether you could be 'drafted' for a government position.
 
Oh, and as for star trek getting this level of scrutiny?
Go to Stardestroyer.net and ask about it... there will be... arguments...
 
atpollard said:
The society seems no more improbable than Star Trek, and I don't remember ST being subject to this level of scrutiny and criticism.

FWIW,
His answer to my question/comment about social motivation convinced me that he had at least thought it out far enough to offer a plausible explanation. That's better than most Sci-fi concepts get and IMO passes the smell test.

Solomani666 has nothing to prove to me - I'm willing to accept his society as at least possible.

Oh my... you evidently have not delved that deep into the ST mythos. Debates and such rage on their forums, at fan conventions, even the fanfic. In some ways this society sounds like Klingons, or perhaps Romulans. Or one of the other somewhat militaristic/barbaric cultures that have mastered very high levels of technology. Though ST has its issue... how can a race that has star travel, obscenely advanced technology, hundreds of star systems, the ability to convert matter to energy be....poor? Not only that, but to be so focused on warfare and essentially gain nothing over hundreds of years of it? Oh, wait, that's how it went in the script! Silly me! :)

Yah, the conversation went off topic a while ago, but hey, that's not unusual around here.

Is the society possible? Yes. Many things are possible. Textbook style Communism ( Leninism, or perhaps Marxism would be more accurate) sounds great on paper - the people are in control of their own destiny and if they work hard they get the rewards for their labor, not "the man", or some oligarchy - take your pick of nobles or wall street.

And this IS a game after all. So all is possible for background settings. But we all know that when you post ideas/concepts on the board others are going to comment on them. Otherwise why post them.

Still, as long as this doesn't degenerate into a finger-pointing, name calling, sniping attack on individuals, I say let it continue till we move onto another thread, where the sniping and finger-pointing and name calling can continue. :)

Party on Garth!
 
Back on "ships for tanks".

Oh, yeah. Tanks. :oops:

To be honest, I'd stick with making it a close support gunship - it needn't have a big smallcraft manouvre drive, but I'd still take one. The reasoning:

1) This is a big investment of time and money, the additional cost for a 1 g manouvre drive isn't actually that much (proportionally). Yes, I know you're not tracking money, but the concept of 'cost-effectiveness' remains even if the coinage doesn't.

2) If it's able to literally fly (even if slowly) in an atmosphere, it can redeploy itself easily without being dependent on other assets for transport. The most vital thing in the US military armoury is the logistics corps, especially for deploying heavy vehicles....if you offered them an M1A2 that could fly to the battlefield under it's own power they may offer to have your babies.

3) This goes double for orbit-to-surface deployment as that's when a normal tank is most vulnerable (being stuck inside a dropship and in an environment where starship-calibre weapons are firing. Being able to mass drop a tank company under it's own power makes taking a beachhead MUCH easier.

4) It's easier as you're not mixing design system rules.

5) Tactically, it's harder to pin down and engage. You were talking about ogres? One of the reasons they top out at the size they do is Steve Jackson's proposed concept of the "ogre limit" - the size at which a tank becomes such a big target it's worth using strategic weapons on it. No matter how awesome your smallcraft tank is, it's still buggered if some git in orbit drops an ortillery torpedo on it. Being able to move fast in such circumstances is a good thing!




Any attacks by ground weapons would be [(#d6 / 50) - armor] making it nearly impregnable on the battlefield, except to meson weapons.
One warning - not that you can do much about it anyway, but warning nonetheless; is there an enemy presence on a similar tech level? If so, you're starting to drift into disintegrator territory, another weapon against which armour achieves nothing.


An enlarged triple sharship turret with a starship PAW and a Fusion Z in parallel.
Okay. Nice and nasty (theoretically) main gun. One observation is that Traveller has never had particle weapons as ground warfare weapons. I'm not entirely sure why - as every other sci-fi archetype used by the ships is also used by the marines (railgun/gauss, missile/missile, Fusion/FGMP, Meson/Meson). I can't see any reason why a neutron-based particle beam should be ineffective in an atmosphere but I put the observation there for wiser minds to judge.

Note - The Triple turret takes up the PAW. You'll need another (anti-personnel) mount for the Fusion gun.

An internally mounted meson turret inside of the front hull section.
There is no reason that meson weapons shouldn't be internally mounted in theory. Again, it may be that there is some immediate decay of meson particles at the barrel as well as at the target. Either way, it's entirely fictional physics, so in your traveller games it does what you say it does.

How were you going to model volume for the internal turret?
Also note that this can't be starship calibre as a 10 dTon hull only has one ship weapon slot and one personal scale weapon slot - so PAW with co-ax FGMP is fine, anything else starship-class will need a much, much bigger hull.



Possibly a computer controlled gatling laser in a coupola turret for anti-personel and air defense.
Depends on the main gun, really - if it has smallcraft fire control, hitting aircraft is no great targeting challenge. That said, some small arms to fend of infantry IS a big deal. Other tanks aren't much of a threat, but even starship armour fails against sapper teams up close and personal, because (a) there have to be access and maintenance hatches and (b) equipment like arc-field blades aren't that high tech in the grand scheme of things.

Crew of 2 or 3.

1 or 2 spotter drones in a rear compartment to make the meson gun super nasty!

Just an observation (again) from real-world tanks. 1 driver, 1+ gunners. ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a commander for an armoured vehicle whose job is soley to command, and isn't stuck playing loader, or secondary weapons gunner, or whatever. This is the guy whose brain is clear enough to spot traps, formulate strategy, co-ordinate with allies, etc, etc.

Make sure you have a full sensor suite and all sorts of transceivers; nasty as such a tank is you always want to be able to call for help - bringing in ortillery fire from a Ragnarok dreadnought in orbit ought to do it.

As to drones; Yes.
If casting your setting as a "pocket empire" with unlimited funds, you will find that the great limiting factor tends to be manpower. Firstly global population limits - anything definable as a pocket empire, especialy one with a massive industrial base, can't throw anything like the number of warm bodies into a conflict as something like the third imperium. Technology has to compensate.

This is a self-perpetuating problem, however, as the more you use tech as a force multiplier, the lower the percentage of the population intelligent and competent enough to qualify as first-line crew on your tanks and ships. To make matters worse, these people are being drawn from the exact same pool of elite talent as the scientists and engineers driving the tech and industrial advantage in the first place.

I'm not saying this is unworkable, just that manpower will always be at a premium, and hence any opportunity to reduce manpower costs will be grabbed with both hands. As a result, computers running fire control software, escorting flocks of combat drones running intellect programmes, etc (possibly even full AI capable tanks - say half the squadron?).

Reference earlier comment on using AI as a garuanteed 'benevolent dictator' to deal with the centrally planned economy, that would imply a level of trust in that tech to allow fielding it on the front line.
 
locarno24 said:
An enlarged triple sharship turret with a starship PAW and a Fusion Z in parallel.
Okay. Nice and nasty (theoretically) main gun. One observation is that Traveller has never had particle weapons as ground warfare weapons. I'm not entirely sure why - as every other sci-fi archetype used by the ships is also used by the marines (railgun/gauss, missile/missile, Fusion/FGMP, Meson/Meson). I can't see any reason why a neutron-based particle beam should be ineffective in an atmosphere but I put the observation there for wiser minds to judge.

I think that Particles may tend to strike the atmosphere, so they keep them in space. [one massive explosion just outside the barrel of your gun can ruin the whole rest of your day.] :)

[EDIT: Light passes through air and missiles and fusion beam weapons are massive enough to push the air out of the way, but PA rely on velocity rather than mass for effectiveness, so a neutron hitting an H2O molecule might be a problem.]
 
simonh said:
So this is a rigorously homogenistic society where everone shares the same values and ideals, with little or no social or political drift.

Why does such as setup work for this society, when every attempt to create a command economy based on a unified ideological system has been a miserable failure? What did these people get right, that all the others got wrong? Historicaly command economy systems like this have always been extremely inefficient. Homogenous social systems only ever worked through a system of brutal repression to force everyone to keep to the same ideological system.


It works because there are strong social forces that support and recognise the individual for who they are. People are generally willing to give up some individual soverenty for the good of the whole only after they are first acknowledged and respected as an individual. This key element has been the failure of governments throught out history.

The command economy works because it is only deals with strategic resources and does so with a democratic process with all people being represented. Because of a surpluss in resourses and high tech production, people need only work a few hours a day or a few days a week. A large part of the time they spend persuing whatever makes them happy in life.

The same social forces that acknowledge and respect the individual also punish the corrupt. The overall familly honor is an adjustment to the social status of every member of that familly. So the act of a single family member can have social repricussions on every other member of that familly. Few things are worse then being an unmarried adult in a family that is known for it's dishonor.

Human beings naturaly change their minds about things, come to differing conclusions about the best ways to do things and choose their own way of life. Historicaly the only way to prevent that is force. Why isn't that necessery in this society?

For example, this system is a democracy. Suppose a charismatic leader arose who passed all the inteligence tests, but argued that he had come up with a much betetr way to organise society to make it more efficient. Suppose he persuaded a lot of people and sarted a reform movement. What would stop him from changign everything? Suppose he was a pacifist? Even if such a person didn't win all the election, could they becoem an influential and transformative force in society? If anyone that passes the tsts can become a leader, what prevents radical political and social change from happening?

Simon Hibbs

[Note: The Intelligence test is only to retire someone from office before they become senile.]

If he had a new way that showed some merit and he had the overwhelming (absolut would be needed to make it run smoothly) support of people on Planet X, then The Planetary representatives for Planet X would simply tell the Emperial Counsel that they are going to try out an experiment on Planet X for 5 years. After 5 years the experiment would be evaluated to see if any changes need to be made to the empire.
If the idea was really radical, then the planet may have to be removed from the Empire for the duration of the "experiment" and placed in 'Protectorate' status.

What would most likely happen is that you would get say 10%-20% of the population not wanting to be part of "the experiment" and not wanting to relocate, and this will probably trigger a civil war. There is a civil war started somewhere in the Empire every 10 or 15 years and it is not considered a big deal if the war is fought as an 'Honor War', where there are very few, if any, casualties. If the war is not an Honor War the casualty list at the end of the war usually becomes a MAJOR CATASTROPHY, with the honor of both sides dropping dramatically. This "experiment" would probably turn into a guerilla shooting war within a month, with the first casualty reports leaving the people of the Empire in a state of horror. Peacemakers would be sent and declare the war over. The Emperial Counsel would declare to experiment over. The guy who started it would be hung for treason, and the heads of many previously respectable families would be stripped of all position and made Ptah (Slaves). Hundreds of really pissed off youth with broken engagements, thousands more pissed off youth who won't be getting married for at least 10 years. The Emperial Counsel knew it would probably end this way but they had little choice but to stand back and let it happen.


Suppose he was a pacifist?


Assuming he had enough of a following and he is a pacifist and tried some radical idea to make the Empire or even 1 planet pacifist... He would be summoned before the Emperial counsel.

..."We understand that you have convinced the population of Planet X to be pacifists. Well we already have several planets of pacifists, we call them 'Protectorates' because they have no army or navy 'so we have to protect them'. Anyone is free to renounce their citezenship and move to a Protectorate world...

...You want to make Planet X a Protectorate world... (Week later)...The councel votes "No". Planet X is too important to the military to make it a protectorate. You plan on defying the Counsel and doing it anyway? You do realize that we are under no obligation to protect you...(Planet reps. are expelled from the Counsel, the orbital fortresses are taken off line, and the planetary Navy is ordered to surrender their ships. [Emperial Property] Six weeks later a Kzan invasion force is 1 jump away, seeking land and slaves)...

...You came up with a radical idea to make the Empire pacifists... Hmmm... Are the Kzan aware of the radical idea? Maybe you should tell them... All in favor of sending this guy to persuade the Kzan to make peace... (All vote "Yay" with the only "Nays" coming from his home planet)... Very well, off you go... (6 weeks later his body is returned without its head)...


.
 
Somebody said:
As for the "government":

Family honor works to a very limited degree. Quite a few civil wars in history where triggered by families "not getting their share of power". And most individual are really p***** at governments that use group punishment.

Another reason to go freedom fighter at the government (1)

Group punishment isn't imposed by the government, it' just part of their culture. In just about any culture, people tend to shy away from people and families that have a 'bad reputation'.

They don't lock people away and they don't have prisons, with the exception of a few POW islands.

Fair share of power?
Your family will have 2 seats in The House just like every other family.
Your planet will have 2 seats in The Planetary (whom the majority voted for) just like every other planet.
The town or city where your family lives will be governed by a Knight or a Baron who is eithter your own familly member or a familly that you have blood ties with.

If there is any group punishment it's most likely comming from your own family which is not so different in any other society.
How many family members do you think will show up at Bernie Madoff's on Thanksgiving?
How many parents would want their daughter to marry a son of a notorious criminal?
In most Western cultures where the family/community ties are largely broken, this may not be such a big deal, but in most Asian countries it would be a whole different ball game.

How many people have said "My son was not elected to Congress/The Parlament so I am going to start a rebellion!"

And what about people who do not like their family and act against them? How does the system handle those? "Cadet lines" of a larger family group acting against the mainline are common. And quite often the actions where NOT honorable but rather assasins, poison and whatever else works.

If you really don't like your family you can marry into someone elses, or go live with an aunt and uncle on a different planet.

In the case of a family member who has disgraced the family, this behavior is not uncommon. Families who clean up their own messes have restored their honor fully provided that they follow all of the rules:

A duel with swords in single combat.
The challenger is in the same peer group. (No more than 1 difference Social Standing)
If killing him is your intent, then it is best to send a woman.

(Traditionally women duel to the death while men traditionally duel to first blood. Which is why duels between women usually take place on a hospital lawn with a med team standing by.)

Poisonings tend to get a little tricky as this is percieved as a dishonorable act.

If I disagree with the government AND I am part of a sizeable group why should I stick to the honor crap? Let's just pull a Tet on the government pigs and blow them up in a surprise attack. And with 10+ percent of the planet showing the binary 2 to the government the "Peacekeeper" declaring "war over" is most likely the guy swinging from the gallows. Most successful revolts in human history where done by very small groups attacking key enemy personal. Putting a nuke under the local airwastes<<<nobles seat of power might not be honorable. But it surely IS effective.

That would be the equivalent of blowing up Congress or the Parlament. Those responsible would be declated 'Shite' (Soc 0). The entire Empire would be outraged and galvinize into the Emperial Armada and crush them like vermine they are.

If groups of people become outcasts (Dishonored family->can't marry etc) than these people will typically join together over time forming a segment of the population. Depending on the size that is a nice source for rebellion or support of other peoples rebellions. After all they have nothing to loose and a lot to win.

They are not outcasts, it just makes it a lot harder to marry into a family with a good reputation, or a family of your previous status. At least until the family honor is restored.

Say Bob finally meets his girlfriends family. They a very good family and have a fine reputation in the community. They inquire about Bobs parents and he tells them that his father is in prison for bank robbery and his mother is currently being treated in a rehab facility...

What they generally do is work really harder to restore the family honor and make sure that it doesn't happen again. And if it does, then they clean up their own mess right away. People from dishonored families tend to receive more citations for bravery in combat.

And all those "outcasts" make prime targets for enemy intelligence. Just like the STASI playing the "Treehugger" fiddle in the cold war a smart enemy will play the "outcast" trombone, help outcasts find each other, manipulate them into settling on small clusters of nearby planets etc.

That would be treason, which is the only official capital crime for a citizen. If the majority of the family were involved, the Emperial Councel would probably vote to wipe the family out (and also have the full backing of the people). Treason puts everyone in the Empire in jeopardy.

Children still in the Creche (ages 0-9) and pregnant mothers cannot be touched since they are under the protection of 'The Order of the Creche'. And nobody wants to get on their bad side!

Something like this has happened in the campaign. It is how a major NPC aquired his second daughter.

(1)I do consider this style of government EXTREMLY oppressive

Oppressive how? You pay zero taxes, work maybe 20 hours a week and live in luxury.

If you want to go to Planet X to visit your uncle, you notify your commitments, and book a high passage leaving next week. If you are travelling with a bunch of friends then you borrow a family owned ship and go.

Compare this to England and the US. You work 40+ hour weeks and pay something like 50% and 30% taxes respectively with little of it being returned as services to the citizens. Now that I find oppressive.

.
 
Somebody said:
It is oppressive because I am forced to serve the state (be a warrior), there is just one set of "proper" behaviours otherwise I am basically "outside the law" etc and under danger to be killed by my "family" etc. Even more so since many of your "alternatives" are none (i.e Uncle etc. are part and problem of the family)

Sorry, sounds a lot like UdSSR/East Germany/Nazi Germany with some "honor" trappings. Including the "report your parents" part and the "creche" bit (HJ/FDJ/Young Pioneers send their greetings)
But the Trains run on time. :)
 
Somebody said:
It is oppressive because I am forced to serve the state (be a warrior),

You don't have to be a warrior. You can become a citizen of one of the Protectorate planets. It's part of the reason they exist in the first place.

Your first duty as a warrior is to protect yourself, then protect your family, your city, your contenent, your planet, your Empire in that order.

In Europe and the US, most people work as a slave for 3-6 months out of the year for bankers. I don't see how this even comes close to compared to that.

Sweden, Israel, and many other demcratic nations have compulsery military service. The US and England both have a draft.

there is just one set of "proper" behaviours otherwise I am basically "outside the law" etc and under danger to be killed by my "family" etc.

They have very few laws governing proper behavior for individuals. You are expected not to lie, cheat, steal, impersonate another person, invade anothers privacy or destroy their property, commit acts of treason, and murder. This is common sense.

Provided that the other person is in your peer group (difference in soc no more than 1) It is perfectly legal to assault, rape, or even kill someone in a fair fight). Just because there are no laws preventing it doesn't mean there won't be severe reprecussions

It is perfectly legal for for a Duke or a member of the Emperial Councel (considered to be in the same peer grop with each other and the Emperor requardless of their actual social standing) to punch the Emperor square in the face. And it does happen fairly often.

The only people who risk getting killed by their own families are corrupt people that have been elected into rulership positions. And that only happens some of the time.

Even more so since many of your "alternatives" are none (i.e Uncle etc. are part and problem of the family)

You could just 'move out'. You become an adult around 16.

Sorry, sounds a lot like UdSSR/East Germany/Nazi Germany with some "honor" trappings. Including the "report your parents" part and

Corruption and treason are crimes. You are supposed to report crimes. That is what good citizens do. And no, you are not supposed to go snooping around into other peoples business looking to see if they are comitting crimes.

the "creche" bit (HJ/FDJ/Young Pioneers send their greetings)

The Order of the Creche protects, teaches and helps raise children. They are midwives (doctors), child phycologists, kindergarden teachers, babysitters and nannys all rolled into one. (The higher ranking ones anyway) They also teach classes to expecting mothers and guard them when in public.

If parents need a night on the town, they can call the order and a sitter will arrive shortly. (usually a relative) Their reputation is such that parents feel they can leave their child with any member of the order, even if they are a total stranger, and their child will be safe and well taken care of. They are also responsible for evacuating and keeping children save during wartime.

The only orwellian part is that children wear a non-removable necklass from birth till about the age of 6, then this becomes a non-removable bracelet between the ages of 6 and 10. The necklasses and bracelets monitor the health of the child and be swithched on to act as GPS locators. Most parents chose to leave the locator on by default however.

(Nearly all adults wear a wrist communicator/computer that can do the same thing, but the GPS signal only activates in a medical emergency or if it is switched on by the wearer.)

In the event of an 'Amber Alert' (missing child) the Order of the Creche has the authority to shutdown and scan any and all tranportation including the starport if nessessary until the child is found. If a 5 year old has been missing for more that a few hours, it usually turns into a planet wide manhunt (childhunt?) with some or all of the planetary Army being mobilized (i.ie. everyone) and also the Navy. They take missing children VERY seriously.

Child abuse is also non-existant in their culture.


.
 
You could just 'move out'. You become an adult around 16.

Not really. As you've defined it, each extended family is sort of a mini-nation unto itself. You'll really, really be screwed without the economic and influential base of the paterfamilias and assorted hangers-on.

Child abuse is also non-existant in their culture.
Highly unlikely.
It may not take exactly the same form, and it may even more be abhorrant when it comes to light but it will occur. Human psychology will not (regrettably) have changed that much. In the majority of cases either it's a family member anyway (and no "order of the creche" will help unless they're stupidly invasive; equally what happens if it's one of them?*). or else in the really repugnant cases it's kidnapping, abuse and then the child dies. Yes, the beacon means you will find the body but that's not the same thing as finding the child alive.

* See priesthood/child abuse cases.


Much of the setting is fine - if you can genuinely sustain yourself in luxury on 20 hours a week work, and that's with no imbalanced pressure on anyone else, either, then you can probably get a stable society. You rarely have a civil war between guests in luxury hotels.

One big observation - what exists outside this pocket empire? The big driver on work pressure is usually competition - to translate, I could work 20 hours a week and live in comfortable luxury, but if the workers of a neighbouring state/corporation work 25 hours a week they'll make more than 125% of my income - there are increasing returns in the early stages of this - and quickly dominate international trade/get the juicy government contracts. So I need to at least match them and ideally beat them at 26 hours a week. And so it goes on.

If the empire has a superabundance of resources and exists in effective isolation without economic or social 'predators' of significant size it can evolve to a much greater level of stability. It's sort of an political equivalent of madagascar and the galapagos - take away pressure and you can find all sorts of unusual structures evolving.
 
England both have a draft.

Just wanted to pick on this:
We have what? Our armed forces are entirely volunteer... so where is this draft thing from?
Also, The US doesn't have one any-more I don't think...
 
Legal provisions exist for one to be instituted. It's just not used - national service finished quite a few decades back.

It's actually quite often the militaries themselves who argue to stop drafts - unless they're in a desperate struggle, they really don't want conscripts; they're unwilling soldiers and often not up to the standards the military would set given a choice (see my previous comments about manpower pressures).
 
Solomani666 said:
Sweden, Israel, and many other demcratic nations have compulsery military service.
The number of democratic nations with a compulsory military service is in-
deed very low, they are a tiny minority - and Sweden is no longer among them.

Just take a look here, only the "red" nations still have a draft, the "orange"
ones have already decided on an exit timeline:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Conscription_map_of_the_world.svg&filetimestamp=20110119191510
 
locarno24 said:
You could just 'move out'. You become an adult around 16.

Not really. As you've defined it, each extended family is sort of a mini-nation unto itself. You'll really, really be screwed without the economic and influential base of the paterfamilias and assorted hangers-on.

You usually start your career working for a family other than your own. If you did a decent job you could always return to the family you started with. This does not mean that have to become part of the family. It just means that you work for them. Usually working and teaching relationships do develop into part of ones extended family.

If you were a real outsider type, you could 'hitch-hike' your way around the Empire. Staying in a different strangers house every few weeks and helping out around the house, farm, shop, market, factory etc. Young people usually live like that for 2 years between their first graduation at 16 and the official start of their careers at 18. This is done so that they aquire a vide variety of skills in a real working environment and decide what kind of job they want to do in life (at the the start anyway) Also so they can determine where they want to live and to experience different cultures and train under different masters.

Child abuse is also non-existant in their culture.

Highly unlikely.

With the vital signs of every child in the empire being monitored 24/7 and a physical checkup every week, child abuse would be very difficult to conceal.

Proven child abusers are quietly murdered and their bodies never found.

Much of the setting is fine - if you can genuinely sustain yourself in luxury on 20 hours a week work, and that's with no imbalanced pressure on anyone else, either, then you can probably get a stable society. You rarely have a civil war between guests in luxury hotels.

One big observation - what exists outside this pocket empire? The big driver on work pressure is usually competition - to translate, I could work 20 hours a week and live in comfortable luxury, but if the workers of a neighbouring state/corporation work 25 hours a week they'll make more than 125% of my income - there are increasing returns in the early stages of this - and quickly dominate international trade/get the juicy government contracts. So I need to at least match them and ideally beat them at 26 hours a week. And so it goes on.

If the Empire says that it needs 100 air-rafts a week, then you give them 100 air-rafts a week not 110. If they needed 110 air-rafts per week they would have told you so. There is no harm in reporting an additional production capacity however. What you might do is allow people to work a few extra hours a week, provided the quality remains perfect, then take an extra month off at the end of the year.

As long as the quotas are being made, the family operating the factory will be judged on:
The quality of the final product.
The increases in the skills and training of the workers.
The satisfaction of the workers.
A safe working environment.
New improvements and inventions.
Environmental considerations.


With other states, the Empire sometimes trades for raw materials, exotic foodstuffs, artwork, and hand crafted items, but they generally don't trade for manufactured goods because they find them to be of inferior quality to their own.

If the empire has a superabundance of resources and exists in effective isolation without economic or social 'predators' of significant size it can evolve to a much greater level of stability. It's sort of an political equivalent of madagascar and the galapagos - take away pressure and you can find all sorts of unusual structures evolving.

There is the pressure of a much larger nearby enemy empire, (an Aslan sub-species called the Kzan) whom they were enslaved by for more than a century, before finally uprising and liberating a dozen worlds. This was accomplished largely by orchestrating and economic collapse that resulted in a Kzan civil war. This is the primary reason they do not have a monetary system in their infrastructure economy.

[Note: The Order of the Creche was origionally created to breed, reer, train and protect the secret army that that was used to overthrow their captors. At the time of 'The Great Uprising' the secret army consisted primarily of children between the ages of 6 and 16, many of whom were slaughtered in the uprising. The Order is still trying to pay the debt for this grevious sin even to this day. This largely explains the Orders utter fanaticism with protecting and nurturing children. Their current mission is to reer, teach and safeguard ALL children. No sane person in the Empire would ever cross the order on any matter reguarding the safety of children. The word 'fanatic' is a complete unterstatement when describing The order of the Creche. They are just fracking CRAZY when it comes to the the protection of children.

Pregnant mothers leaving their homes are assigned an armed guard.

A childs playground is a fortress. If a child is injured because a Creche Guardian was not paying attention and it led to a child being severly injured (Children are allowed to explore and hurt themselves within limits) two Creche Guardians would tackle the the Creche Guardian responsible for the error to prevent her from killing herself with her 'Creche Knife' and two others would attend to the injured child.]

There is also the incentive to invent and create new things. Creating a new invention or a fantastic work of art is a great way to increase ones social status.

=================

Each person has two Social Statuses an actual social status and a perceived social status.

Your actual social status is your Name (The actual length of it)
Your percieved social status is your Fame (or Infamy, which usually fades over time) This may fluctuate above or below your actual social staus.

Given no other factors your Fame equals your Name
Modifiers to ones Fame (or Infamy) tend to deminish over time until ones Fame equals ones Name.

Some things that can modify your fame:
The reputation of your family.
The reputation of your parents.
Your behavior. (John's Fame is -1 because he acts like a wanker all the time.)
Inventions.
Great performances.
Heroic deeds.


A high Fame easliy translates into material wealth and benefits: Party invitations, interviews, gifts etc. The painting/dress/widget you made also goes up in value when you are famous so you can trade it for better stuff at that time.

A non-standard currency does exist, but is completely unrelated to whether you eat, have a car, or a place to live.
(See the previous posts for a clearer picture of this)

A very rough average of the yearly per capita income of a person in Imperial credit terms can be found in the following chart. This is based on the persons Name and temporary Fame:

Note: This does not include basic food, clothing, vehicle, general living expenses, a home or an apartment, basic weapons (energy pistol and rifle, non energy pistol and rifle, sword and dagger) or armor (battle dress or vacc combat armour, plus body armor) or education which runs into the multi millions of credits per student per year and tapers down after their first graduation at age 16. These things are provided to everyone reguardless of their social status. (except soc 0 and 1)

Soc 00 1,000 (Shite) [Person has dishonored themselves while committing a henious crime]
Soc 01 5,000 (Ptah) [Persons has dishonored themselves]
Soc 02 25,000 [Ages 10-15] (Creche Child/Creche Student) [Family name plus given name]
Soc 03 50,000 [Age 16] (First graduation) [Third name]
Soc 04 75,000
Soc 05 100,000
Soc 06 125,000
Soc 07 150,000
Soc 08 200,000
Soc 09 300,000
Soc 10 400,000
Soc 11 500,000 (Knight/Dame) [Town]
Soc 12 1,000,000 (Baron/Baroness) [City]
Soc 13 5,000,000 (Marquis/Marquess) [Continent]
Soc 14 10,000,000 (Count/Countess) [Planet]
Soc 15 50,000,000 (Duke/Duchess) [Subsector]
Soc 16 100,000,000 (Emperor/Empress) [Empire]

This chart does not represent a salary, but the average level of additional goods, services and other benefits availible to a person of a certain social standing or 'Name'.

For instance. An artist might offer to paint the portraits of the Baron and Baroness of his local city. If these are displayed in the Barons home then this will bring him fame and increase the value of his paintings. He will then be able to attract more apprenticeses. If His aprenticeses gain noteriety that that bring even more fame to himself and his own paintings.

===============

Something I forgot to mention in previous posts is that ALL APPOINTMENTS AND ELECTED POSITIONS ARE HELD BY MARRIED COUPLES. This is one of the reasons why family honor and who you marry are so important in the Empire. If you elect the Emperor his wife automaticaly becomes the Empress with equal, if not divided, powers. Thus it is possible to have two Emperors and two Empresses, Dukes, Counts, etc., appointed to the same position. This is written in the Emperial Constitution to ensure equality of the sexes.

The House representatives are one male and one female (a married couple) from each family. The Planetary representatives are one male and one female (a married couple) from each planet. (in these cases you can vote only for a married couple.)

At the start of the Empire women had little representation. After the immediate threat to the newly birthed Empire's boarders were dealt with, a Suffragette type movement started. After all it was the women of The Order of the Creche that raised and trained the army that overthrew their oppressors (and watch them get slaughtered), and it was women who were considerd 'of no consequence' by the Kzan that were the main operatives for intelligence and the planting of the virusses that caused the Kzan economic collapse. They demanded equal right and representation under the law.

After several decades with little or no progess, the female elected themselves a 'Queen' who started a passive resistance campaign where women began moving out ouf their households into armed 'female only' communes. Women still worked as usual but always travelled in groups of three or more and heavily armed, at night they returned to their communes. Every women in the movement made a pledge to not bare children until equal rights were granted and took year long birth control pills to ensure it. "Equal rights or our race stops now!" was their motto. In many areas this even escalated to the point of denying the male gender sex. The Queen was eventually killed (assassinated) which touched off a shooting war between the genders. The Kzan got wind of this and started to assemble an invading force near the boarder. The female population led by the battle hardened and hard hearted Order of the Creche, defeated the ostracized male population by attrition. The males simply could not stomach killing their sisters, mothers and wives. They were commiting genocide with each rifle shot bringing their race closer to extinction. (Which also led to a civil war within the male population.) This was not so much of a problem in the female population because they were waging a defensive war with orders to only shoot if fired upon. The males finally realizing that the empire, and their entire race was in peril of being extinguished or captured into slavery by the Kzan, finally capitulated unconditionally.

The assembling Kzan battle fleet (They were still fighting a civil war) was defeated by the newly unified Emperial fleet.

Females were given control of one third of the Emperial fleet as stipulated in the male surrender agreements. One day they secretly assembled (with only female crewman) and jumped out of Emperial space.

But that is another story...


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