Ship Hulls For Tanks - Pocket Empire - Arguing W/The Foolish

[barnest2]

The above is all pretty much spot on...

This is exactly why most people who claim to be communists/ wish for communism to take hold in the world say:
"I wish communism would work"... see? the point is, it doesn't, because there is a lack of motivation for people to work towards the betterments of society.

Of course, some people do, its usually called patriotism, and they usually end up joining the armed forces or going into civil service...

 

[rust]

The alternative would be an extremely affluent society where robots and
machines do all the work and produce all the goods, and artificial intelli-
gences plan and coordinate the entire economy - a society where humans
have nothing to do but enjoy their wealth. Unfortunately such a society
would also require a completely different human "mindset", because the
complete lack of meaning and sense would otherwise drive the citizens
of this society into madness, and instead of more quality of life the re-
sult would be either attempts to escape this "paradise" or a high level of
suicides where escape would be impossible.

As the main interest of this society seems to be of a military kind, and
the economy is geared to produce arms, one might think that the humans
who have nothing else to do might spend their time training for war and
fighting. However, this would require a different human "mindset", too,
because history shows that the more wealthy humans become, the more
they tend to avoid lethal risks - they have more to lose.

In the end, to make such a society work, it would need humans who are
- from our current point of view - extremely insane.

 

[DFW]

Unfortunately such a society
would also require a completely different human "mindset", because the
complete lack of meaning and sense would otherwise drive the citizens
of this society into madness,

Historically, the "idle rich" as a subset of society, have tended to go quite mad after a time...

 

[phavoc]

This all came from an idea I had; what if you had a government without amonetary economy, but instead had a resource based economy.

In reality, a fiat currency based econ IS a resource/production based econ. End game is no different as the currency is only as valuable as the production of the entity...

Fiat currency is NOT a resource/production based economy, hense the term 'fiat'. Fiat currency can best be described as a corruption based economy since banks create money out of thin air by lending money they do not have and then collecting interest off that money that never existed in the first place. Hence fiat currency can not be in any way a resource/production economy. In fact most of the money in the world does not even exist at all.

Ah, see, you are oversimplifying things here. Banks don't make money out of thin air. They can (and do) loan money based on a percentage of their deposited assets. They charge interest because they have expenses (ATM's and buildings and such aren't free) PLUS they have (usually) owners who expect a return on their investment (who aren't necessarily depositors) AND they need profits to cover bad debts and future capital expenditures.

Money does indeed exists. What you are talking about is perceived value. We got off the gold/silver standard a long time ago because the amount of money in the system simply did not correlate with the amount of gold available (not to mention value fluctuations of gold...)

Money has an intrisic value far less than what is printed on there. It's the perceived value that we go by. Pundits incorrectly state the the US is "broke" because of our debt. That's a bald-face lie for two reasons. The first is that its just debt. So long as the people holding the debt believe it will be repaid, its valid debt. Plus so long as the US people continue to believe in their monetary system and support it, its just debt. But if you want to say we are in debt, you also have to look at the assets of the government. They (or better we, the citizens as a whole) own many trillions of dollars of real estate, minerals, even a few tons of gold here and there. Our true assets far outweigh the debt (and that's just covering street value... not what it might bring in a sale). Though we don't see it that way because each generation holds most of the assets in trust for the next.

And currency as a source of corruption? Hmm, that's like saying guns are evil creatures who do nothing but kill. Money isn't corruption, its a tool for PEOPLE to CORRUPT and BE CORRUPTED.

 

[DFW]

Ah, see, you are oversimplifying things here. Banks don't make money out of thin air. They can (and do) loan money based on a percentage of their deposited assets.

In a properly run Fiat currency system they shouldn't. In the U.S., they currently do just that unfortunately. The Fractional-reserve banking system lets large banks do this. Been this way for ~3 decades. Hence the huge monetary inflation experienced by the USD...

 

[Solomani666]

It's a Democratic government with a resource based economy where people are assigned positions based on merit and have the overwhelming consent of those governed.

Those two don't work together necessarily. You have defined that positions, are assigned by popular vote (democratic government) AND a Meritocracy (position assigned by objective criteria)...

Candidates are selected based on merit and skill, then voted on by the people.

 

[phavoc]

Ah, see, you are oversimplifying things here. Banks don't make money out of thin air. They can (and do) loan money based on a percentage of their deposited assets.

In a properly run Fiat currency system they shouldn't. In the U.S., they currently do just that unfortunately. The Fractional-reserve banking system lets large banks do this. Been this way for ~3 decades. Hence the huge monetary inflation experienced by the USD...

Yeah, but that's a specious argument. Value is a moving target in this argument. By that chart a dollar today only has the buying power of $.06 in 1801 dollars. But things change a lot in two years. Besides which the value of a dollar is the value placed in it by the society using them. You have inflation, stagflation, and deflation which aren't (I don't believe at least) taken into account by the graph.

Where'd you get that anyways?

 

[DFW]

Yeah, but that's a specious argument. Value is a moving target in this argument.

No, you don't understand buying power and why it would stay level for ~100 years THEN go off a cliff.

Research that for a while and you'll understand the graph I posted.

 

[DFW]

Candidates are selected based on merit and skill, then voted on by the people.

Got it. That would be very good if the criteria was well thought out and measured.

 

[phavoc]

Yeah, but that's a specious argument. Value is a moving target in this argument.

No, you don't understand buying power and why it would stay level for ~100 years THEN go off a cliff.

Research that for a while and you'll understand the graph I posted.

I do understand the concept, but the portrayal on the graph distorts it. The graph is citing what variable? GDP? CPI? unskilled wages?

The average wage in 1913 was $1,296. In 2008 its $37,388 ~ a 2,885% increase. Some things cost more pecentage wise today than they did in 1913. But not everything. Labor costs more, but we are more productive. What variables did your chart not take into account? I think today a person has more buying power than they did a hundred years ago.

 

[Solomani666]

Corruption is much harder to conceal as it is pretty difficult to pass 5000 tons of titanium under the table.

In a tl15/16 society, it would be particularly easy...

If you have everything you need and nearly everything you want, then money becomes pointless.

You can keep saying this. It doesn't change the fact that things have a cost even so. why would people work, if they get nothing for their work?
And just saying that they get what they want isn't good enough.

What you're going for is a perfect utopian meritocracy (I don't think you can combine this with democracy)... which is possible, if people stop being greedy... good luck with that one...

People work, create, invent because it is the only way to advance in society. They have a saying... "The only real currencies are 'name' and 'fame'.

A person who did not work would be ostricised by their peers and family and basically be left with nothing. No one would ever marry them.

The first step would be psych counceling to find out the persons problems with the family strongly supporting the 'sick' person. The person would probably be sent to one of the protectorate planets for a long sabbatical since they usually specialize in dealing with poeple who do not fit into the militerized republic. If the person was deemed to be uncurably mentaly ill, their citizenship would be revoked and they would become a citizen of the protectorate world. This would be done as quietly as possible, but not covered up, since most mental illnesses might bring the viability of the family bloodline into question. Families with a history of mental ilness can have a severe impact on single individuals in the family seeking a marraige mate. Murders and coverups have been known to occur.

If the person is deemed not to be mentally ill but simply lazy, this will be a mark on the family honor andthe family will eventually have to deal with this as this can also have a severe impact on single individuals in the family seeking a marraige mate.

Most likely the person will be declared 'ptah' or 'spit' wich involves an extremely humiliating public ceremony where the undividual must break his own sword and then set fire to his own belongings. He must then walk past the lines of his family and community members who turn their backs on him as he approaches. If his sins have been perticulairly grievus, then also be spat up, stripped of all clothing and even possibly lead in chains.

Ptah have a social standing of 1, are stripped of all rank and name, may not mate or even touch a sword or knife under penalty of death, must wear checkered clothing at all times, and are divorced by default from their spouses. They are then assigned to a family as a servant (slave) until such time as they earn their family name again. (Giving them a social standing of 2)

Truly corrupt officials are often secretly murdered by their own family members before such a public display of the families honor can ever come to light.

If evidence of the persons corruption are proven, and the situation has been dealt with 'in the family', rarely if ever is the investigation continued except if additional corruption is suspected. No honor is lost by a family that cleans up its own messes in fact it validates the families current honor level.

.

 

[barnest2]

Wow... this society is screwed up...
I mean, to ostracise someone because they act like a human being? (which unfortunately involves greed and desire)
They're psychologically counselled and essentially exiled because they don't conform?

 

[Solomani666]

Wow... this society is screwed up...
I mean, to ostracise someone because they act like a human being? (which unfortunately involves greed and desire)
They're psychologically counselled and essentially exiled because they don't conform?

If they chose not to work then they would be expecting something while giving nothing in return. They would be given many chances to change their ways and to find something that they do like. Which is why students are given 2 years off and an unlimited student pass to travel/train/explore between the ages of 16 and 18 through out the republic.

You only think that greed is normal because you live in a sick society that where the amount of stuff you have determains your status and also largly what and if laws apply to you.

They live in a society where merit and services determain their status. They value relationships, their own legacy as someone who made the next generation better, and their family honor as being more important than personal stuff. But as one gains a name for themselves (higher social status) they generally get more and better stuff (and responsibility) as a result.

.

 

[barnest2]

They live in a society where merit and services determain their status. They value relationships, their own legacy as someone who made the next generation better, and their family honor as being more important than personal stuff. But as one gains a name for themselves (higher social status) they generally get more and better stuff (and responsibility) as a result.

So... more like the commonly held view of imperial Japan?

You only think that greed is normal because you like in a sick society

A) Don't tell me how I think. It's rude
B) Oh yes, is this society sick. Completely agree with that bit.

 

[Solomani666]

Corruption is much harder to conceal as it is pretty difficult to pass 5000 tons of titanium under the table.

In a tl15/16 society, it would be particularly easy...

Actually it would be very difficult. That much titanium would be a strategic resource that would be allocated by the [Senate] and ultimately managed by someone of at least a Count (manages a planet).

Many people would have to remain quiet for the corruption to take place.

...We allocated 5000 tons of titanium to you to biuld air-rafts, where are they?...

...Where did these titanium bars come from that are stamped with the Maserati crest?...

...Why am I transfering titanum stamped with a Maserati crest to planet X instead of planet Y?...


What would a person do with 5000 tons of titanium anyway?

If you really needed titanium for a project that would benefit your planet or the Republic, then just request it.

If your planet had extra resources just log the extra resources on Trade-Net in exchance for something your planet does need.

.

 

[Solomani666]

They live in a society where merit and services determain their status. They value relationships, their own legacy as someone who made the next generation better, and their family honor as being more important than personal stuff. But as one gains a name for themselves (higher social status) they generally get more and better stuff (and responsibility) as a result.

So... more like the commonly held view of imperial Japan?

You only think that greed is normal because you like in a sick society

A) Don't tell me how I think. It's rude
B) Oh yes, is this society sick. Completely agree with that bit.

I mean, to ostracise someone because they act like a human being? (which unfortunately involves greed and desire)

A. I did not tell you how you think...You told me that you think that greed is part of acting like a human, therefore I was not rude.

 

[rust]

They live in a society where merit and services determain their status. They value relationships, their own legacy as someone who made the next generation better, and their family honor as being more important than personal stuff. But as one gains a name for themselves (higher social status) they generally get more and better stuff (and responsibility) as a result.

Experiments of the kind you describe usually went comparatively well for
a generation or two, but then imploded and turned into average societies.
Sparta, perhaps the best example for a historical equivalent of what you
describe, lasted a little longer, but finally collapsed and disappeared, too.
Human biology and human psychology enforce very strict limits for any
society that wants to survive for some time, and are very resistant to any
attempt to suppress them through ideologically motivated oppression.

Apart from all this, I hope you are aware that what you desribe is a typi-
cal fascist dictator's wet dream.

 

[far-trader]

It's a nice idea (in an idealistic way, I suppose), many of the reality side problems have already been raised, but I have a couple questions on your views of a couple I don't see addressed:

1 - 100% Employment? That is, productive and valued "work" for the society by every member of the society. How exactly (or vaguely ) do you see this accomplished?

2 - What of esoteric... (no, that's not quite the word I'm looking for, drawing a blank though... stuff like philosophy, art, entertainment, etc.) contributions? How are these valued in a meaningful way? Does contributing in this fashion require appealing to the masses or showing some practical application before I can eat and have a roof over my head? Most artists are not meaningfully recognized in their lifetime, most people find philosophy and such a pointless waste of time, and the only entertainers who have the public at large interested are generally not (imo) producing work of value but escapist fare that dull the senses and distract from the cares of the world (non-medicinal opiates).

 

[rust]

It's a nice idea (in an idealistic way, I suppose) ...

Ah ... what part of this is "a nice idea", in an "idealistic" way ? :shock:

Ptah have a social standing of 1, are stripped of all rank and name, may not mate or even touch a sword or knife under penalty of death, must wear checkered clothing at all times, and are divorced by default from their spouses. They are then assigned to a family as a servant (slave) until such time as they earn their family name again.

 

[barnest2]

Ah ... what part of this is "a nice idea", in an "idealistic" way ? :shock:

I think he meant the bit where people work for the good of society...

Though for that matter, it sounds like they work more out of fear of reprisal