IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
Well some people working for the good of society can be found at http://www.fsf.org/barnest2 said:
Ship Hulls For Tanks - Pocket Empire - Arguing W/The Foolish
- Thread starter Solomani666
- Start date
rust said:I am probably just overreacting, a cultural thing perhaps, the part I quo-barnest2 said:
ted seems to remind me very strongly of something that happened over
here some decades ago ...
I may have just noticed where you come from... yeah, you would have a good reason to react badly
far-trader
Mongoose
barnest2 said:
Yep, spot on.
barnest2 said:
There is that, which is not so "nice" or "idealistic"...
Ok, I'm on an iPhone so naturally I refuse to type out that much at the moment, but have you all seen Eclipse Phase's Reputation/Networking based economy? I think Solomani666 is really trying to describe just that sort of economy, where you can ask for 5000 tons of titanium *because of who you are.*
It's a fascinating concept of a post-money economy where scarcity no longer exists. In other words, to do away with a currency in the traditional sense, you need a post-scarcity economy. Then, your "currency"'becomes your reputation and relative ability to leverage that reputation to get what you want/need.
He's got a valid point, and it is definitely plausible but you have to accept certain premises. Eclipse Phase does an excellent job of it.
(whew! Not bad for an iPhone!)
It's a fascinating concept of a post-money economy where scarcity no longer exists. In other words, to do away with a currency in the traditional sense, you need a post-scarcity economy. Then, your "currency"'becomes your reputation and relative ability to leverage that reputation to get what you want/need.
He's got a valid point, and it is definitely plausible but you have to accept certain premises. Eclipse Phase does an excellent job of it.
(whew! Not bad for an iPhone!)
far-trader
Mongoose
IanBruntlett said:
Ummm, no, not so much that. They want the free part without considering any reward for work done the way I see it. That gets you generally what you paid for. Ask any software pirate what they've done for society lately, I'll bet the answer is one of:
Cracked the protection on this or that...
Uploaded a copy protection busted version of this or that (where some other pirate did the actual work)...
...or some variation on the theme of "take" rather than "give".
I'm talking someone studying medicine because it interests them, then providing treatment to people. The people who built the hospital with the sweat of their brow using materials other people who may seek treatment supplied. Who were fed by the people who get satisfaction from producing food. Which also goes to the people who build the implements they use and the stores they take it to for distribution... and so on.
Utopia? Perhaps. Achievable? Bloody unlikely for any population over a very small tight knit community.
far-trader
Mongoose
Just a sidebar note...
Why isn't there (or is there?) a decent dictation app?
apoc527 said:
Why isn't there (or is there?) a decent dictation app?
Solomani666
Mongoose
atpollard said:
Everyone has multiple jobs. One job that directly benefits the Republic, at least one Life Persuit job of your own undertaking, and one also has the job of being a warrior. You are expected to excel at all three.
If you are middle aged and your family was granted the comissioned to build air-rafts then your 'boss' is most likely your father or another relative.The comittment level for any primary job is usually around 25+ hours per week. Your working hours are decided between you and your 'boss'. Your life persuit is usually done making whatever it is you make and teaching your apprentices.
Young people (18+) are encouraged to work outside the family at the start of their careers. The comittment level for any primary job is usually around 10-20 hours per week. Your working hours are decided between you and your 'boss'. Your life persuit is usually done at first under the guidance of a 'master' for maybe 10-20 hours a week, and after a decade or so you should have enough of a name to leave the apprenticeship and gather your own pupils. Once a week you do combat drills with your family, or the family of your 'master'. Once a month you do planet wide drills lasting 1-3 days. You practice with your sword and and guns under the appropriate 'weapons masters' maybe 3-5 times a week. 2-4 times a year you go back to your univerity to teach and take masters courses for 2-4 weeks. This is done for life until the school becomes a tech level 15 city.
If you are in or attached to the navy, then career hours are longer and the life persuit hours are less, and you might only get go back to your university 2 times a year.
Your elegibility for gaining a name is determind by how well you perform in all three of your careers, though you may only gain an additional name (+1 social status) from one of them in any particular year, during what is called "The Day of Naming".
People are reluctant to slack off because ones entire social status is based on the length of ones name, (with some adjustment derived from family honor or lack thereof) and the most direct way to add to ones name is to perform all of your jobs to excellence. The length of your name determains personal wealth, who you can marry, and titles of nobility.
Back to your example:
Social rank is also the default military rank in their society.
Since Bill could not handle the stress of managing a widget factory then he certainly can not handle leading troops in combat. The problem is not that he got burnt out, it is that he did not have enough sense to take a month long vacation before his symptoms got so bad, neither he nor his doctor, who should have diagnosed and treated this (checkups at least once a month), will be promoted any time in the near future. Both will be removed from any appointed offices they are currently holding and publicly censored if there was a significant detrimental effect to the republic.
Why would people work longer, harder and smarter? Advancement, fame, and personal wealth. They get their first taste of it when they make their first graduation at 16 or 17 earning them their third name (soc 3) People who gain a name are famous on their home planet for at least a month. Talk shows, interviews picture in the papers, gifts... The younger they are, the more of a big deal it is. Now if they are being awarded a name because of a great invention or a heroic act, then they are rock stars for at least a year.
If you are an apprentice and make boots, one way to get noticed might be to make a pair of boots for someone who is about to or just received a name, in the hopes that they will wear them at an interview ar at the very least give a comment about it that you can use in an advertisement. Interviewers usually give some time for the interviewed person to give personal plugs for his/her friends. At the very least it will be in the hypertext.
...I love what you are wearing, can you tell us about it?...
...Have you received any gifts lately that stand out in your mind?...
When you are famous and you walk in the market various merchants may ask you to taste their fruit, try on their shirt, wear their goggles, use their widget, etc. and comment on them for (recorded) advertisement opps. Young people usually love the attention. As one gets older and more established in their careers, they tend to tire of it.
Young people (Until about the age of 25 when sanity returns) tend to wear bright flashy colors, dye their hair in un-natural colors and style them in ways that defy the laws of gravity. They do this to get 'noticed'. Lady Gaga would feel quite at home here.
Middle age people tend to only display their family crest and maybe and award ribbon or two.
Older more established people tend to wear very plain but stylish clothes in public, prefering to draw as little attention to themselves as possible.
Since it is their culture that "with great responsibility comes great service" the persons of the highest social standing are expected to serve at social gatherings. The proper greeting is to bow, with the person of the highest social standing bowing the deepest. How much each person bows is determained by their individual social statuses and the difference in social status. NO ONE EVER BOWS BEFORE THE EMPEROR!
They have a saying... "A person spends the first half of their life seeking name and fame, and the second half of ones life try to get rid of it!...
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Responding to the above quote in Solomani666's post: the concept of a work week does not exist in a post-scarcity environment. This environment relies entirely on nanotechnology to make "production" a trivial task. All that matters is raw materials, which are often shared, and doled out based on reputation and perceived worth. Each person's worth is determine by their skills. For example, if I can program the colony fabber, I'm very useful. Somi might get more stuff when I ask.
The whole concept is very Facebookish and utilizes crowdsourcing quite a bit. It's cool. Not sure how realistic, but given the mature nanotech, who knows?
The whole concept is very Facebookish and utilizes crowdsourcing quite a bit. It's cool. Not sure how realistic, but given the mature nanotech, who knows?
Solomani666
Mongoose
It's actually many different government types depending on the level.
It is an Empire during wartime in that the Emperor and the Empress have total command the military. No challenges (duels) are allowed to the Emperor or Empress during wartime. At wartime The Planetary (Senate) can advise the Emperial Couple but can effect no measures or policies that effect the war effort. The House (House of Rep.) manage the industry and logistics of the war effort under the direction of the Emperial Couple.
The Peacemakers (Supreme Court) make sure no atrocities go on and let everone know when it's time to sue for peace.
During peace time it is a republic with three parts:
The House (Reps from all the major families, one male and one female) and The Planetary (Two reps from each planet, one male one female) together forming the Emperial Senate.
Emperial Couple or Couples as it is possible to have two emperors and two empresses.
Peacemakers. Arbitrators, can command the suspention of any feud or duel. Oversee each of the empires 4 constitutions.
(There is also an elected King and Queen for each of the three major races in the empire whose powers are limited to social and constitutional aspects for their own race) They do act as advisers but have no real power on the Emperial level.)
Strategic resources and industy are allocated in socialist structure.
Subsectors, planets, continents, and cities are ruled (managed) in a feudal structure of appointed then elected nobility who serve for life. (Or until they abdicate or their Int stat goes below 6 for a period of 1 year)
Constitutionally many decisions must be directly voted on by the people.
--------------
Even if someone was greedy what could they possibly do about it?
To what end?
What would they take/steal/hoard?
Where would they keep it?
What would they do with it?
It has happened in their history, and the family was put to death for treason. Which is how one of the main NPC's accuired his second daughter.
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Solomani666
Mongoose
apoc527 said:
The NEEDS are given out based on what can and needs to be produced. This is the tied to ones Primary job that directly services the Empire. This is very socialist in that everyone is generally given the same amount of stuff.
The WANTS tend to be accumulated based on a persons actual and percieved social standing and also who your friends are. This is tied more toward ones Life Persuit.
Your NEEDS job benefits the Empire, your Life Persuit (WANTS) benefits you and the members of your Clique and in tern your Clique provides you with your wants.
Your Clique is generally everyone from your university about 10,000+ people or more, your family, and any other close friends you have aquired over the years. Everone in your Clique makes stuff for everyone else in your Clique. Your Clique makes all your stuff that is not 'Massufactured'. Clothes, shoes, boots, jewelary, art, dinner plates, silverware. The stuff may be just OK when you are 18 or 20, but by the time you are 35 or 40, you are getting some really high quality stuff made by 'master craftsman'. Then you start getting custom battledress, swords, special weapons, Maserati grav cars, Faberge eggs, Picasso's and the like. But if your Life Persuit is to make turbo bikes and the wheels tend to fall off no one is ever going to want to give you anything and your name will be 'Mud'.
Massufacturing items in a tech 15 society IS a trivial task, but no person would be caught dead in massufactured clothing. The cloth might be woven by machine but the dress or shirt will always be handmade. This holds true for most personal items. Even if the core of a wrist communicator is massufactured usually the case and the wristband will be handmade.
They are a very hands on culture, everything massufactured must be inspected, tested and approved by a human whos personal seal is actually stamped on the item. Items are simply not allowed to come from a factory with defects. If a vehicle fails because of something that was overlooked and should have been noticed, then the inspector(s) are held personaly accountable, and to some degree the manager. If a life is lost because of such neglagence it is considered a catastrophy.
so you have a society that avocates merit to advance
odds are there will be many who won't have the fame to get voted into office
and of course those high ranking jobs will be few(they have to have a value or they are worthless)
your corruption will take the form of protection rackets,murder(if the best is dead everybody can now have a chance to move up),dirty tricks to lower an opponents fame by scandal,etc
odds are there will be many who won't have the fame to get voted into office
and of course those high ranking jobs will be few(they have to have a value or they are worthless)
your corruption will take the form of protection rackets,murder(if the best is dead everybody can now have a chance to move up),dirty tricks to lower an opponents fame by scandal,etc
Solomani666 said:
Solomani666
Mongoose
apoc527 said:
Close.
If you are an engineer of at least average social standing and you requested 2 tons of titanium to create your Maserati grav Car prototype you will probably get it. If not, then you can ask uncle Bob to give you 5 tons of wheat from the family stores to trade for it on Trade-Net.
After you get the prototype finished, you hype it. You hire a PR and advertising person from your clique by promissing her one of the first 5 models should it ever go into production. She creates a Tri-D video that causes a lot of hype on the net. She then throws a big party and invites eonly select famous person she know to attend. They each drive it and go ohhh and ahhh about it which she catches on tape of course.
This time he requisitions 20 tons to start production to the local count who sees that there is indeed a surplus and grants him the 20 tons. He then calls up members of his clique with the nessassary skilly to help him put it into production. All of whom are promised one of the first 20 models and a share of the fame.
------------------------------
5000 tons of titanium would fall under strategic resources and would only be granted to a family, and only if they were comissioned to build something for the empire, like 10,000 air-rafts, which is the amount of titanium we are talking about here.
Now assuming that the Empire did need 10,000 more air rafts:
1. The Planetary would deside based on various factors which planet would be most favorable to build the new air raft factory (assuming a new factory needs to be built)
2. The House would decide which families have the nessassary skills, project management and labor force to complete the task. (Multiple families would actually join in the manufacturing) Let's say this get narrowed down to 4 families on two planets.
Then comes politics Terellian style!...
Since this is peace time, the constitution requires that the final candidates be chosen by direct vote from the people. (Not a very difficult task since they have limited FTL communications)
3. Debates are held where representatives from each candidate family state why their planet and family are best suited to the task.
Polls are conducted as to which family won the debate. Any clear losers usually have enough sense to bow out gracefully at this point and make a deal with another candidate in exchange for their support. By deal I mean something like "I'll support you but I want you to allow some of my young skilled workers in on the project too..."
Lets face it. All four families are more than qualified to take on the task, or they would not have been selected in the first place. What the people really want to see are the extended families 'youth' persuading their cause with pride and enthusiasm. Next they want to see a happily married couple with the charisma to lead them.
What the people want to see next is a demonstration of who wants it more.
Now the fun begins...
4. In order to draw attention to their cause the families usually perform a series of stunts which tend to become more outrageous as the election day draws near. Only the adults perform the truly stupid acts. The idea is to to be funny, outrageous, but not overstep the line of peoples sensibilities. And also not get severly injured or killed.
Notable stunts of the past stunts have included:
Lightshow graffiti on Candidate X's moon using starship laser cannons telling the people to vote for Candidate Y
Suborbital skydiving while trailing a mile long banner.
Swimming naked through arctic water.
Note: The elections for Emperor and Emperess are conducted differently. After the debates, televised interviews are conducted with friends and familly members. No sane person actually wants to become Emperor as only two have ever died of old age. Empresses fair better, but still only half have died from natural causes.
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Solomani666
Mongoose
Beastttt said:
Aside from bringing honor to your family, they have no value. In fact they are a big huge pain in the ass, and often put life and limb in peril.
I don't see how that would be likely. Protect who from what? How would the protectors get paid?
Moving up is based on your own merit and has nothing to do with room above you. There may be dozens of marques on a continent but only one will be elected as ruler. The other marques are most likely part of his own family or extended family. Thus if he or she rules well it brings honor to them as well. If the ruling Marque is found to be corrupt, then murders often do take place.
Being appointed to a ruling position tends to lower ones life expectancy. This increases with rank. A knight ruling a town has little to worry about except the occasional non-lethal duel. An appointed Duke rulling a subsector has his life in constant peril. Being Emperor is a suicide job.
This does happen but you had better not get caught and you had better be very good with a sword.
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Solomani666
Mongoose
DFW said:
Why do you think that is the case? Why would a high level of force be needed?
Solomani666
Mongoose
rust said:I am probably just overreacting, a cultural thing perhaps, the part I quo-barnest2 said:
ted seems to remind me very strongly of something that happened over
here some decades ago ...
They work out a sense of duty to oneself and their family. If they don't like what they are working at, then they interview for a job with another family.
Their Life Persuit job is entirely their own.
As far as the warrior job, everyone joins the Army at around age 10. If they don't like it, then they can give up their citizenship and move to one of the protectorate planets like Empathy.
There's a big mish-mash of government - you've cited democracy, meritocracy, republicanism, feudalism, and even some tribalism.
It would be difficult to do that in practice with humans. Though its easy to postulate and create on paper. Most utopian societies sound great on paper, but utterly fail when it comes to actually working out.
You also cite a highly militaristic society (monthly drills othe militia, constant personal practice), and a highly armed one. Not that an armed society is a bad thing. But when you say that when people become corrupted, murders can occur. Well, question becomes who gets to be judge, jury and executioner? Or who watches the watchers?
Your economic model also seems to have an inherent flaw in it. First people's needs are met, so that's assuming everyone gets the same base level of food and shelter. But its possible for some to be 'more equal' than others. But if you are trying to give everyone equality, then how does one get to accumulate wealth to be later traded for a want? And if everyone needs an airraft, well, you get one. As long as you want it in black. A airraft for everyone, by Mr. Ford.
It's interesting concept, but not quite workable. At least as our past history tells us. Even Star Trek had bad people and corruption. And they got transporters.
It would be difficult to do that in practice with humans. Though its easy to postulate and create on paper. Most utopian societies sound great on paper, but utterly fail when it comes to actually working out.
You also cite a highly militaristic society (monthly drills othe militia, constant personal practice), and a highly armed one. Not that an armed society is a bad thing. But when you say that when people become corrupted, murders can occur. Well, question becomes who gets to be judge, jury and executioner? Or who watches the watchers?
Your economic model also seems to have an inherent flaw in it. First people's needs are met, so that's assuming everyone gets the same base level of food and shelter. But its possible for some to be 'more equal' than others. But if you are trying to give everyone equality, then how does one get to accumulate wealth to be later traded for a want? And if everyone needs an airraft, well, you get one. As long as you want it in black. A airraft for everyone, by Mr. Ford.
It's interesting concept, but not quite workable. At least as our past history tells us. Even Star Trek had bad people and corruption. And they got transporters.
Solomani666
Mongoose
far-trader said:It's a nice idea (in an idealistic way, I suppose), many of the reality side problems have already been raised, but I have a couple questions on your views of a couple I don't see addressed:
1 - 100% Employment? That is, productive and valued "work" for the society by every member of the society. How exactly (or vaguely) do you see this accomplished?
2 - What of esoteric... (no, that's not quite the word I'm looking for, drawing a blank though... stuff like philosophy, art, entertainment, etc.) contributions? How are these valued in a meaningful way? Does contributing in this fashion require appealing to the masses or showing some practical application before I can eat and have a roof over my head? Most artists are not meaningfully recognized in their lifetime, most people find philosophy and such a pointless waste of time, and the only entertainers who have the public at large interested are generally not (imo) producing work of value but escapist fare that dull the senses and distract from the cares of the world (non-medicinal opiates).
People typicaly have 3 career paths:
1. A job that that directly benefits the empire
2. A life persuit job of your own making
3. A warrior.
1 - The time spent on the job that benefits the empire can be lowered or raised from the average 20 hours a week as needed to keep everyone employed, leaving more or less time for the life persuit job. This provides for your NEEDS.
2 - Your life persuit job is where you basicaly create whatever it is that you want to. This job provides for most of your WANTS. Basicaly you barter and exchange whatever it is you create in this job with other people in your clique for whatever it is that they produce that you want. You paint a picture for his home, he makes you a new pair of boots.
A clique is basicaly everyone in your university 10,000+ people, your familly, and any other friends you have made.
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Solomani666
Mongoose
DFW said:
Everyone makes something or provides some service that directly supports the empire. The exception being persons in active Naval service.
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