Ship Hulls For Tanks - Pocket Empire - Arguing W/The Foolish

[Solomani666]

England both have a draft.

Just wanted to pick on this:
We have what? Our armed forces are entirely volunteer... so where is this draft thing from?
Also, The US doesn't have one any-more I don't think...

Until WWIII...


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[barnest2]

So, Fascism, Jah?
Sorry, that might be bad taste, but seriously? 24 hours monitoring of vital signs in children, which also gives you a pretty good idea of what they are doing at time. What age does this go up too?
Also, a physical check-up every week? That is incredibly over the top, and would create huge inefficiencies in the system, because doctors would be too busy looking at children rather than dealing with adult patients. You would need a massive over-abundance of doctors to keep up with this, especially if you got a baby-boom or something.

This was accomplished largely by orchestrating and economic collapse that resulted in a Kzan civil war

How the hell did they manage that while enslaved? Violent or even non violent uprising I can see, but how can you cause economic collapse without access to the financial system, which you wouldn't have as a slave... presumably...

There is also the incentive to invent and create new things. Creating a new invention or a fantastic work of art is a great way to increase ones social status.

But if you are busy inventing, you are not busy working, and there fore are liable to be put in for psychological re-programming because you are not working towards the good of society

Until WWIII...

Actually, we had national service in the '50s, we had a volunteer army in WW2, conscription was ended at the end of WW1... and unlike most other nations, conscription did very good things for this country. It led to a wealth of social reforms which increased general health across the nation...
Twas not a draft...

 

[Solomani666]

So, Fascism, Jah?
Sorry, that might be bad taste, but seriously? 24 hours monitoring of vital signs in children, which also gives you a pretty good idea of what they are doing at time. What age does this go up too?
Also, a physical check-up every week? That is incredibly over the top, and would create huge inefficiencies in the system, because doctors would be too busy looking at children rather than dealing with adult patients. You would need a massive over-abundance of doctors to keep up with this, especially if you got a baby-boom or something.

The monitoring is done largely by computers. Children are totally monitored till the age of 6, then closely monitored till the age of 10 when they are 'uncollared' so to speak and become junior warriors. Its a really big deal similiar to a bar mitzvah.

All teachers are Med-0 or more.

It's simple, homeroom on Mondays is a medical checkup. Done.

This was accomplished largely by orchestrating and economic collapse that resulted in a Kzan civil war

How the hell did they manage that while enslaved? Violent or even non violent uprising I can see, but how can you cause economic collapse without access to the financial system, which you wouldn't have as a slave... presumably...

It was a psyops operation supported by virusses implanted in the computer systems. The uprising was planned over several decades and was actually started about 10 years earlier than planned when a war started amongst the clans unassisted.

The female populations was considered 'of no consequence' by the Kzan and thus were allowed more freedom of movement then their male counterparts. "I have a mate waiting for me in sector B. I am fertile now..." They also tended to work as house and technical servants while the males did mostly hard labor and were bred for strength.

Note: This is also why the average Terellian male is 6'2". Terellian females tend to be very petite averaging about 5'3".

There is also the incentive to invent and create new things. Creating a new invention or a fantastic work of art is a great way to increase ones social status.

But if you are busy inventing, you are not busy working, and there fore are liable to be put in for psychological re-programming because you are not working towards the good of society

People have plenty of time off to think and to talk about ideas with a 20 hour work week. There are many philosopher farmers in the Empire.

Until WWIII...

Actually, we had national service in the '50s, we had a volunteer army in WW2, conscription was ended at the end of WW1... and unlike most other nations, conscription did very good things for this country. It led to a wealth of social reforms which increased general health across the nation...
Twas not a draft...

The US had a draft during WW2 and Congress considered passing a draft resolution during the First Gulf War. What is your point?

Try invading a Terellian world with a poulation of only 5 million. You will be facing a TL 15 army of 4 million strong equiped battledress or combat armor and tanks. Every family has a secret cache of supplies that only they know about and every town has a few nukes. The Terellians make the Dynchia look like boyscouts.


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[far-trader]

...There are many philosopher farmers in the Empire.

I think you misunderstand both fields

And I suspect your "farmers" are more food production factory managers than farmers and your "philosophers" are more propagandists than philosophers given the TL and stated social norms

 

[barnest2]

The US had a draft during WW2 and Congress considered passing a draft resolution during the First Gulf War. What is your point?

That I'm not from the US

 

[Solomani666]

...There are many philosopher farmers in the Empire.

I think you misunderstand both fields

And I suspect your "farmers" are more food production factory managers than farmers and your "philosophers" are more propagandists than philosophers given the TL and stated social norms

What I meant by that statement is that even though a person might do manual labor, they still invent and come up with new ideas. A few men gatherd together will not only talk about their favorate grav-ball team, but also politics, philosophy, and that new idea or invention.

If ones life persuit is farming it will most likely to be done largely by manual labor, growing the most perfect, unblemished and tasty produce to be sent to a restaurant run by a member of the persons clique.


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Very little if any propaganda. If one wanted to know the truth one could just ask Uncle Bob, when he return from The House.

Elected officials that mislead the people tend to not be in office very long, even if they don't actually lie.


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[locarno24]

Elected officials that mislead the people tend to not be in office very long, even if they don't actually lie.

It may be a clash of experience, but I feel you have a somewhat optimistic view of human nature.

If one wanted to know the truth one could just ask Uncle Bob, when he return from The House

But if an extended family is as big as described, he'll be in a meeting with cousin James. Then cousin Richard, and then....well, he wants some time to himself before he goes back to the House. Besides which, he wants you to think he's achieving something for the family, doesn't he?

All teachers are Med-0 or more.

Medic/0 is pretty much a trained first aider. All contemporary teachers probably are.

It's simple, homeroom on Mondays is a medical checkup. Done.

What's the birthrate/life expectency in this place?

If a child is injured because a Creche Guardian was not paying attention and it led to a child being severly injured (Children are allowed to explore and hurt themselves within limits) two Creche Guardians would tackle the the Creche Guardian responsible for the error to prevent her from killing herself with her 'Creche Knife' and two others would attend to the injured child.

Or to put it another way, five people (more likely six, since if you know that's going to happen you need a sixth to maintain watch on the area whilst it's going on) are watching over every playground. How many children does that represent?

Proven child abusers are quietly murdered and their bodies never found.

Now that, I have no problem with (in every possible sense of that phrase), especially if there's a fanatical desire to hunt people down if it does occur. But that's not the same as the problem not existing at all.

Moving up is based on your own merit and has nothing to do with room above you. There may be dozens of marques on a continent but only one will be elected as ruler.

Quick observation - if there doesn't have to be a specific knighthood/marquessary/dukedom for me to be granted when I reach the rank, and can simply go up in rank because the assessors (whoever they are) have reached the verdict of 'the lad's got talent', is it not possible for someone not merely to be of equal rank to the local ruler but superior? If so, how does a knight ruling a town interact with a landless marquis?

 

[DFW]

And for self protection: In civilized countries you do that by calling the police!

In reality, the police are called to draw the chalk outlines. (when seconds count, the police are only minutes away) Unless, you are fortunate enough to have one with you at all times, strapped to your back or something... :shock:

 

[barnest2]

Unfortunately he has a point. What if you do get into trouble. The area I live in is pretty okay, but there are still murders.

 

[DFW]

I do not know where you live but I sure want to know so I can evade that part of the world.

It applies to every nation.

Do you have a police officer next to you at all times?

Yes or no?

If not and you get assaulted, it is chalk outline time.

It is axiomatic.

 

[rust]

Aside from the fact that in 43 years I never needed the police outside of traffic accidents ...

Very similar here. I once had to call the police because of domestic vio-
lence in a nearby apartment, and once because a burglar had "visited"
us and we needed a police report for the insurance - so on average one
harmless police contact per 25 years.
Sure, serious crimes do happen, but here they usually are either crimes
of passion within a family or crimes which stay entirely within the "milieu".
Under normal circumstances a bellicose drunkard is about the worst one
does encounter.

 

[rust]

If not and you get assaulted, it is chalk outline time.

Almost certainly not. If someone uses lethal force in a crime, his chance
to get caught is - depending on the region - between 90 % and 95 %, and
his chance to spend a lot of time in jail is 100 %. The number of people
who are stupid enough to take such a risk is extremely low, so no chalk
outlines required. The chance to get hit by the moon falling on Augsburg
is about as high as the chance to get assaulted in a way which would ma-
ke chalk outlines necessary.

 

[DFW]

If not and you get assaulted, it is chalk outline time.

Almost certainly not.

Umm, chalk outline applies to the victim. Catching someone AFTER he murders you isn't protecting you.

:lol:

 

[rust]

Umm, chalk outline applies to the victim. Catching someone AFTER he murders you isn't protecting you.

I suspect even if I would try to get murdered the chance to succeed would
be very close to zero. :lol:

 

[DFW]

I suspect even if I would try to get murdered the chance to succeed would
be very close to zero. :lol:

Not the point

 

[DFW]

IF I get assaulted. ...

It is a simple yes or no question.

Let me know when you want to answer...

 

[rust]

It is a simple yes or no question.
Let me know when you want to answer...

The problem is that this is such a completely hypothetical question, it is
almost of the same quality as if you would ask what one would do if the
Mongolian navy would attack Berlin. "Yes" or "no" does not make much
sense if the scenario behind the question is in itself bordering on ridicu-
lous. I really do not want to step on your toes, but I seriously do not
know what to do with that question - just take any answer you like. :?

 

[Solomani666]

If to hold an elected position you must be a married couple (male/female from your text) your "culture" denies passive voting rites to

+ The shy
+ The ugly
+ The non-hetero
+ To those who are "surplus" (There is a male/female imbalance in humanity)

Let me guess: Those not being "warriors" can't vote either. Neither active nor passive

Exactly. With the exception of the 'Ugly' part.

I never said they were perfect...

and/or leads to "forced marriage" when a family wants to gain "honor" or "standing" and the best candidate is not married yet. Systems with that much off build in peer pressure AND such restrictions to passive votes are generally considered faschistoid.

No forced marraiges and no arranged marraiges. There are social pressures to get married and even more to stay married.

The males definetly marry for love, With duels and wrestling matches fought (often fixed) to capture a womans attention and favor. Songs are sung, poems recited, gifts given and deeds of bravery performed in the name of his hearts true desire.

Certain people might be asked to bear a child with another person 'for the good of the Empire'. It is entirely voluntairy and considered to be a great honor. The pair are not expected to get married. This is handled by the Saurons, a member race specializing in genetics.

Their are many positions that one can be appointed to that do not require one to be married. Only the Emperial positions have this requirement. There a plenty of ways for someone to gain honor without being elected to an Emperial position.

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[Solomani666]

Quick observation - if there doesn't have to be a specific knighthood/marquessary/dukedom for me to be granted when I reach the rank, and can simply go up in rank because the assessors (whoever they are) have reached the verdict of 'the lad's got talent', is it not possible for someone not merely to be of equal rank to the local ruler but superior? If so, how does a knight ruling a town interact with a landless marquis?

No one is 'landless'.

The higher ranking noble may or may not act as a direct advisor to the Knight that administers a town. If he/she is in good standing, then his/her words will carry much weight at the next town meeting where various town issues are debated and voted upon.

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[Solomani666]

Wrong! The european nations have a host of options, one of them is "Serve as a soldier". Based on germany in the Cold War (Where we actually HAD a visible enemy) the options where

+ Civil service (18 month vs. 15+Reserve)
+ Join the fire department
+ Join the Civilian Disaster reliev (THW)
+ Join the Police (1)
+ Join the Borger Guard
+ Go to Draft Dodger city (Berlin)

So military service was 100 percent volunteer despite "the draft" being active.

And for self protection: In civilized countries you do that by calling the police!

In their culture everyone is in the Army and the Police Force, and well trained so they don't need protection.

The army protects your farm, city, continent, planet, and starsystem. The Army does not go anywhere to fight outside of their own system or planet. The Emperial Marines are a volutary career path. These are troops that are mobilized to fight off planet. Except for newly formed colonies they don't even concern themselves with protecting their own worlds because they don't have to.

What is a "fair" fight? Rigging a duel is extremly easy. I.e all males in my family can shoot but in a "Pistols at 20 paces" none has a chance against me since I am the only one who shoots regularly. As for the rest that sounds like "might makes right" since being a member of a large/powerful clan will save you from punishment. Sounds like the Viking "civilization" where "being right" and "getting ones dues" where also different things. And again it forces the individual to bow to the clan since only with the clans backing can you get what you are entitled for

Duels are fought with swords, knives or barehanded and in accordance with strict rules and options agreed to by both parties. This is always one on one and the person must be in your peer group. (within 1 soc of each other)

There is some 'might makes right', so a person who wins a duel and is clearly wrong may have to fight multiple duels with different people before the matter is put to rest. No one likes a bully.

Anyone caught rigging a duel would be stripped of all honor, name, social standing and posessions and made a Ptah or slave until such time that they recained a name for themselves.

The exception to this is that duels for a womans favor or hand in marraige are often rigged with the combatants agreeing ahead of time who will win. (This assumes that both men are not actually vying for the womans favor!) This is done to show the mans commitment to the woman and to raise the womans perceived value.

"Moving out" => loosing the clans protection => becoming a target/outlaw in your society. That is what modern cultures worked hard to abolish! The individuls right to have and voice/live an opinion MUST come first for a system to be called civilized IMHO.

And that still leaves the problem of "what to do if the child embarasses the family". Example:

I come from a small, conservative german town (Thankfully I left it). VERY conservative-catholic. One of my co-pupils back in school was gay. TOTALLY! unacceptabel. He kept that hidden through high school and university. Once he was finished and had a job (in Cologne!) he told his parents - they have not spoken since. He is happily married in Cologne these days (To a man, naturally) and his familly still suffers (His younger brother often heard "Are you a man or like your brother)

In your society the familly would send out someone to murder (and I consider duels murder(2)) him to "restore family honor/standing"

What two warriors do consentually is none of anyones business. An embarrasment is not a dishonor. No one from the family would send someone to murder them. You are still seeing this from your own culture and experiences.

If reporting crimes is "good citizens duty" not doing so is a fault => will be punished in your "culture". So people WILL snoop around and report everything. Simply because out of fear. We had such systems in Europe. Sowjet joke:

Prisoner 1: Why are you in the GULAG P2?
Prisoner 2: I was lazy
P1: GULAG for that?
P2: Yes. See my neighbour told me a political yoke and I laughed.
P1: And that is lazy?
P2: Well, I thought "ah come on, reporting him to the KGB tomorrow morning is early enough. Turns out the bastard went there just after telling!"

That is how systems evolve, humans being humans. And "reporting every little bit" is good at eliminating rivals. And with your family structure the informant likely will not be an outsider but an insider so "no snooping"

And no, you are not supposed to go snooping around into other peoples business looking to see if they are comitting crimes. That person will eventually get the reputation of being a 'snoop' and a 'busy body'. As their reputation grows, so will their ostracism.

Corruption and treason are crimes. You are supposed to report crimes. That is what good citizens do.

So if someone tried to sell you a watch matching the description of a watch that was taken from someone by a mugger, would you report that person?

Handing the "offending" family member over to the state "doctors" to have him "cured" (or Brainwashed) is a good way to keep family standing intact after all

There are no 'state doctors'. If a person has phycholgical disorders, the family will go through great lengths to see that they are made well. Sending them and a few supportive family members to the protectorate planet of Empathy for some time often sets things right. The planet specialises in personal and phychological services.

Jup, just like the above institutions. Get your fingers at them early, "educated" them in the proper ways from birth. Read Goebbles on the Nazi youth system (or Honnecker on the East German) - Same system

(1) german police outside the SWAT equivalents are trained and orderd NOT to kill. Most police officers here pride themselves that they have "never drawn the gun outside training"
(2) There are three acceptabel reasons to kill another intelligent being:

+ He tries to harm your life/health and you have no other means (i.e running away) to prevent that
+ As above but the target is a person that can not defend itself
+ You are a member of the national armed forces and your country (or an ally) is invaded. In that case enemy armed personal is a legal target

Children are given a multimillion credit education which also includes combat training. Most people will defend their homes, family and towns with lethal force if trained, but only if the have to. Everyone is in the Army, but only a select group is a member of the Marines and Emperial Navy.

Killing for honor, revenge etc. is barbaric nonsense IMHO

They don't kill for honor, but sometimes a person elected to a position might get killed to erase his dishonor, if it were found out that he used his office for criminal activity. Their are no 'laws' that say that this should be done, but some families take their reputations very seriously.

Most criminals, are simply stripped of their name, posessions, and social status, and made to work for another family until they regain a name for themselves.

Duels fought by men are almost exclusively to first blood only.
Duels fought by women are rare and only over the most serious matters since they rarely duel to first blood.

People make personal judgements not only on the outcome of the duel, but also the reasons for it.

The net result is a society with almost, no crime or corruption. They have great art, grand architecture, a rich culture and great public works.There are tight family structures. People greet and treat each other very politely. Individuals and their achievements are acknowledged and rewarded. Peoples homes are open to strangers and travellers. People have a great deal of time and resources to persue their own lifes goal. Generally the people are happy.


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