Shadow Fighters - Just why

[Triggy]

I dislike the 1VP per flight cost, not only for the point raised but others too.

Fighters are balanced so that they are "worth it" compared to other ships and fighters without VPs really factored in. This means that Kotha flights giving away more VPs that White Star flights is a little unfair.

However this is a minor issue compared to the fact that fighters give away 1VP per wing no matter what Priority Level game you are playing. Just picture your two Kotha wings in an Armageddon PL game. They'd give away more VPs than the Brivoki you've just killed. Also compare this to a horde of Shadowfury fighters in a 5 FAP Skirmish PL game. If they kill a single Patrol PL ship then the enemy has no chance at all of winning on VPs! I don't know about you but to me this isn't right.

 

[Ripple]

Yep, just wanted to keep it to the shadow fighters aspect of what I see as a really silly decision.

Ripple

 

[Da Boss]

is there a better way of working out VPs for fighters - anything anyone has tried?

Although I would still rather have 1 or 2 more flights per wing of Shadow fighters than no change at all

 

[Sulfurdown]

SFOS based it on the number of ships in a Wing, basically that each priority selection was worth that much in terms of VP. Most likely this will be what is used for any house campaign going forward, with the caveat that you have to kill more then 50% of a wing to get the VP, unless someone can convince me otherwise. (none of this kill 1 flight for one patrol ship VP unless the flights come 2 per Wing.)

Auxiliary Craft & VP’s: Auxiliary craft included in a game as the onboard complement of fighters for a capital ship do not give VP’s for being destroyed – the VP’s awarded for the mothership factor in the fighters already. For every wing or part thereof of auxliary craft destroyed that was bought for a fleet seperately from any carrier, VP’s are awarded as for destroying a ship of the same Priority Level as the auxiliary craft wing. For example, if an Earth Alliance player bought 18 Starfuries for his fleet as 6 Starfury wings and during the game his opponent destroyed 11 of those, the opponent would be awarded VP’s as if he had destroyed 4 Patrol-level ships.

 

[Misiolak]

Speaking of vps for flights.
Do you know that if wing of shadow fighters chooses to disengage via hyperspace mastery, they give your opponent the same vps as if they were destroyed? Another not so useful ability :? :roll:
I know, it is the same for fighters withdrawing via board ege, but I mention it for these that think hyperspace jumping fighters are that great...

 

[Burger]

Speaking of vps for flights.
Do you know that if wing of shadow fighters chooses to disengage via hyperspace mastery, they give your opponent the same vps as if they were destroyed? Another not so useful ability :? :roll:
I know, it is the same for fighters withdrawing via board ege, but I mention it for these that think hyperspace jumping fighters are that great...

Except in a campaign, you get to keep the fighters for another turn. So it does have a use.

 

[Da Boss]

Also if they jump in I don't think they can jump out - the Ships can't - or use each others jump point.

 

[Ripple]

That needs to change at some point too, the answer just doesn't work. The previous rule of three turns was fine, and the only abuse we could come up with was jump point bombing that this new rule addresses.

ripple

 

[Da Boss]

Would probably make sense that the Ancients can come and go more readily than the younger races - the Shadows certainly phase in and out in the same battle in the show. They tend to bug out when the odds are against them. In normal ACTA 2nd Ed neither race can jump point bomb so that would not be a worry..............

So maybe a 3 turn cool down for them?

 

[No. 1 Bear]

not to be a pain or anything but can you summerize the last oh 22 pages please so that people with not a lifetime on their hands can understand it.

 

[Da Boss]

Er the title says it

Seriously

My contention is that shadow fighters are not worth their points for reasons in the first and subsequent posts. Various discussions have eveyone but Matt and perhaps one or two others(?) agreeing that they are not worth it at present but not the best way to fix them

options being presently one or more of - more flights, different stats, Shields working against AF and or Dogfights.

However Matt has also said they ain't gonna change and put forward his reasons behind it (which I don't agree with but hey his game ) on this thread and in latest S+P.

new thoughts welcome

 

[Goldritter]

I don´t know, if I remember right.

But in AOG´s Babylon 5 Wars the Shadowfighter were "spawned" from a Shadowship and die quickly if the Ships disapear (flle, got killed).

So they the Players got no VP from destroying Shadowfighter.

Why not here too ?

(All ther fighters has Pilots or need time to build/grow so their loss will hurt much more and are worth VP.)

 

[No. 1 Bear]

Ok thanx, so its just telling everyone that they suck, which they do alot. However surely as one of the ancient races they would have made them suitable to their job? Also how can the PLs be balanced if i can get 2 tethys and you can get 2 shadow fighters. Or in a campaign get a skirmish ship for 2 shadow fighters.

 

[Gregor]

Suitable for their job -

its more like they used to have a job millenia ago, but things have moved on and the Shadows now rely exclusively on their ships. The fighters are an anachronism from a past age, and are there as a red herring - hey, if you think you can achieve anything with them - good luck. I have played with and against Shadows a fair bit recently, and the Shadow fighters are a mere speed hump for other races' interceptors.

The simplest tweak I have seen is to make them hull 6, and possibly 3 to a flight - but they are never going to compete at the lower priority levels.

 

[Triggy]

Suitable for their job -

its more like they used to have a job millenia ago, but things have moved on and the Shadows now rely exclusively on their ships. The fighters are an anachronism from a past age, and are there as a red herring - hey, if you think you can achieve anything with them - good luck. I have played with and against Shadows a fair bit recently, and the Shadow fighters are a mere speed hump for other races' interceptors.

The simplest tweak I have seen is to make them hull 6, and possibly 3 to a flight - but they are never going to compete at the lower priority levels.

The simplest tweak is to make them about 4 per wing and it's something I'd recommend for campaigns and any play at home. As for officially, keep up the pressure and you never know what may happen (as playtesters we are constantly looking at game balance and if enough of a protest is raised, we will take a harder look at the issue).

 

[daishi]

Please dont take offense Triggy but if 23 pages worth of protest are not enough (which I think is the longest post I have seen) then I dont know what will

We have house ruled shadow fighters in our games at home & so far they are working & still not overpowered -

I have given up & are only looking at this post still to check if anything has changed officially - well mainly

 

[Triggy]

Please dont take offense Triggy but if 23 pages worth of protest are not enough (which I think is the longest post I have seen) then I dont know what will

We have house ruled shadow fighters in our games at home & so far they are working & still not overpowered -

I have given up & are only looking at this post still to check if anything has changed officially - well mainly

I'm with you all on Shadow Fighters needing some form of boost. Unfortunately this will almost certainly have to wait for the next design cycle but hopefully [crosses fingers] something will be done then.

 

[ShopKeepJon]

OK, this isn't really a suggestion that I expect anyone to take too seriously, but I think it would work well as a house rule...

Assume that the shields on Shadow fighters are powerful enough to protect them from anything but concentrated firepower. To represent this, add the following special rule to the entry for Shadow Fighters:

"Shadow Fighters may not be targeted by Anti-fighter systems and may neither engage nor be engaged in dogfights."

If you want to kill them, shoot at them...

This would cause them to behave the way that Matt describes them and give them a nice power boost without changing anything else about them.

ShopKeepJon

 

[Da Boss]

Interesting - but you also need to let Narn fighters ram them

 

[ShopKeepJon]

Interesting - but you also need to let Narn fighters ram them

I've always wondered why the Narn didn't get the same "we're desperate, let's ram them" rule that the Dilgar have... but that's a different thread...

ShopKeepJon