Shadow Fighters - Just why

[Locutus9956]

Except for the part where he says 'you get three of them'. He is very clearly suggesting you get three per wing. Its not being misread (although it may have been miswritten...

As for comparing them to Vorlon fighters, Vorlon fighters have a very viable antifighter defence and can attack from 3". So basically they DONT GET KILLED BY FIGHTERS AND AF BEFORE THEY CAN ATTACK.

Noone complains about them because they dont have the same collosal weakness the shadow fighter has to enemy fighters and antifighter guns. Indeed the Vorlon fighters AF gun is in many ways BETTER than dogfighting ability as it gets a chance to shoot the enemy down BEFORE it gets locked in a dogfight potentially STILL getting its attack run as well as taking the enemy fighter out and to even if it fails then it still gets a CHANCE to dogfight (a crappy one but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick )

 

[Burger]

Sigh :roll:

"You get three of them" is referring to ATTACK DICE, not flights per wing!!!!!!!!!

Thought I'd write it big because people can't seem to read it in the previous posts.

Shadow fighters are in the eyes of everyone on the forum, broken and rubbish. But Matt has given his opinion: he is right, the World is wrong. So lets just house-rule it and move on. Bored now.

 

[H]

Sigh :roll:

"You get three of them" is referring to ATTACK DICE, not flights per wing!!!!!!!!!

Thought I'd write it big because people can't seem to read it in the previous posts.

ooh, can we compare attack dice? the frazi gets 4 of em but the dogfighting ability of, well, a shadow fighter....

 

[Da Boss]

Sigh :roll:

"You get three of them" is referring to ATTACK DICE, not flights per wing!!!!!!!!!

Thought I'd write it big because people can't seem to read it in the previous posts.

ooh, can we compare attack dice? the frazi gets 4 of em but the dogfighting ability of, well, a shadow fighter....

well true but there will also be 5 Frazi flights for every 2 Shadow Flights - and in campains can get 10 for every 2 Shaodws - or 2 for free if you have a Carrier .........................plus the narn actaully get a choice below Raid

 

[Locutus9956]

Sigh :roll:

"You get three of them" is referring to ATTACK DICE, not flights per wing!!!!!!!!!

Thought I'd write it big because people can't seem to read it in the previous posts.

Shadow fighters are in the eyes of everyone on the forum, broken and rubbish. But Matt has given his opinion: he is right, the World is wrong. So lets just house-rule it and move on. Bored now.

Erm what previous posts? I've gone back through all Matts posts and cant see it saying anywhere that he meant attack dice....

Re-reading the article it DOES seem to be refering to attack dice actually, just seems a confusing way of wording it. Still regardless its pretty much unanimously agreed that Shadow fighters are in 90% of games out there essentially USELESS. Saying 'your not using them right' does not make them good. If you CANT use them right in most games (and don't kid yourself into thinking theres a sneaky trick to using them, if your opponent has basically ANY fighters or AF dice you are boned no matter what you do) Saying they should be used to swarm captial ships is all well and good. Great, thats how I WANT to use them but they cost too damn much to be viably used in such a manner and its even worse in a campaign where you pay DOUBLE for your 2 pitiful dogfight bait fighters....

 

[Burger]

Erm what previous posts? I've gone back through all Matts posts and cant see it saying anywhere that he meant attack dice....

Just read the rest of the sentence. "you get three of them per flight"... three flights per flight? Three wings per flight? Three tangarines per flight? What else could he be talking about than AD's???

Plus the previous sentence was talking about the AD's traits.

 

[Greg Smith]

It is Burger's previous posts. Matt wrote it in his article. And some of us (me included), mis-read it.

 

[Sulfurdown]

However, you are also getting three of them per flight.

Smaller but quoted. It's the "per flight" that identifies what the "three" is referring to. Yes the Drazi to have a SHF with longer range and more dice, the pay out in characteristics nearly balances them but I believe the S/Fighter comes out *just* under the DSS in guns. The Frazi fighters actually come in under the S/Fighter on a wing to wing when you look at characteristics.

Edit: and the quote is already referenced. Yeay for the slow typing.

Edit2: though the Frazi will most likely have a backup and actually reach the target to use it's guns on it. Unless the S/Fighter drops straight out of hyperspace on ships without AF/AAF, it still may have trouble punching through. Unless you're using a FAP on the order of War or Armageddon, in which case you *might* beconsidering taking the Shadow Ships instead of the fighters.

 

[Da Boss]

However, you are also getting three of them per flight.

Smaller but quoted. It's the "per flight" that identifies what the "three" is referring to. Yes the Drazi to have a SHF with longer range and more dice, the pay out in characteristics nearly balances them but I believe the S/Fighter comes out *just* under the DSS in guns. The Frazi fighters actually come in under the S/Fighter on a wing to wing when you look at characteristics.

Edit: and the quote is already referenced. Yeay for the slow typing.

Edit2: though the Frazi will most likely have a backup and actually reach the target to use it's guns on it. Unless the S/Fighter drops straight out of hyperspace on ships without AF/AAF, it still may have trouble punching through. Unless you're using a FAP on the order of War or Armageddon, in which case you *might* beconsidering taking the Shadow Ships instead of the fighters.

hmm, Hyperspace is not always available - plus using the Disperal tube is instead of firing the beam - your one gun! the Fighters also sit there for a turn doing nothing. The problem is not that the Shadow fighter doe not have good guns - it does but it it has to get there and its too vulnerbale and too few in number to do that! Majority of fleets will chop them up with their fighter screen /AF - and of course then they are also interceptable - unlike the Vorlons........another reason there is nothing worng with the Vorlon fighter

Sad that its not going to be changed judging from the tone of the article but then the powers that be considered the Troligan (2nd version, 1 st ed) fair and balanced (like Fox News ) of course this was before they baned it from their tournament!

 

[Burger]

It's better to compare the Shadow Fighter to the other heavy bombers, than to a Frazi. Roughly converting the AD's into "AP" dice since that is the most common...

Sky Serpent: 4 TL, 4 AP, 3 per wing... equiv 24 AP per wing
Pikatos: 2 AP/TL, 2 MB per flight, 5 per wing... equiv 20 AP per wing
Riva: 4 AP, 2 P/SAP per flight, 3 per wing... equiv 24 AP per wing
Rutarian: 3 TL, 2 DD/P per flight, 2 per wing... equiv 18 AP per wing
Porfatis: 4 AP, 1 AP/DD/SL per flight, 3 per wing... equiv 15 AP per wing
Double-V: 4 TL/W, 2 AP per flight, 5 per wing... equiv 25 AP per wing
Tzymm: 4 TL, 3 AP/TL per flight, 3 per wing... equiv 21 AP pe wing

Shadows: 3 AP/DD per flight, 2 per wing... equiv 12 AP per wing.

So, even in offensive capabilities, the Shadow Fighter SUCKS compared to other races anti-ship fighters. Porfatis is the only one that comes close, and that has weapons of range 8, hull 6, and anti-fighter trait!

 

[H]

It's better to compare the Shadow Fighter to the other heavy bombers, than to a Frazi. Roughly converting the AD's into "AP" dice since that is the most common...

Sky Serpent: 4 TL, 4 AP, 3 per wing... equiv 24 AP per wing
Pikatos: 2 AP/TL, 2 MB per flight, 5 per wing... equiv 20 AP per wing
Riva: 4 AP, 2 P/SAP per flight, 3 per wing... equiv 24 AP per wing
Rutarian: 3 TL, 2 DD/P per flight, 2 per wing... equiv 18 AP per wing
Porfatis: 4 AP, 1 AP/DD/SL per flight, 3 per wing... equiv 15 AP per wing
Double-V: 4 TL/W, 2 AP per flight, 5 per wing... equiv 25 AP per wing
Tzymm: 4 TL, 3 AP/TL per flight, 3 per wing... equiv 21 AP pe wing

Shadows: 3 AP/DD per flight, 2 per wing... equiv 12 AP per wing.

So, even in offensive capabilities, the Shadow Fighter SUCKS compared to other races anti-ship fighters. Porfatis is the only one that comes close, and that has weapons of range 8, hull 6, and anti-fighter trait!

how would the frazi actually work out, as it's a terrible dogfigter, and i actually see it i guess as a light bomber, depressing as when ACTA came out it was one of the fighters with the best destructive potential!

 

[Burger]

how would the frazi actually work out, as it's a terrible dogfigter, and i actually see it i guess as a light bomber, depressing as when ACTA came out it was one of the fighters with the best destructive potential!

Well 4 AD with no traits is probably worth about 3 AP... times 5 flights per wing gives 15. So, better than Shadows, and with more "redundancy" in that the AF trait would be spread much thinner between 5 flights than 2!

I was going to say easier to kill with hull 4, but then I checked and see Frazi has hull 5 too. Go Narn!

 

[H]

how would the frazi actually work out, as it's a terrible dogfigter, and i actually see it i guess as a light bomber, depressing as when ACTA came out it was one of the fighters with the best destructive potential!

Well 4 AD with no traits is probably worth about 3 AP... times 5 flights per wing gives 15. So, better than Shadows, and with more "redundancy" in that the AF trait would be spread much thinner between 5 flights than 2!

cool. Quite respectable then really i guess
would have liked to see the narn get a new heavy fighter in 2nd ed, but it was not to be

 

[Sulfurdown]

Adding another flight per wing would then tip the S/Fighter over the Porfatis in terms of AS impact. Though the Pft will probably survive much longer, especially backed up by the plasma web and AF traits.

 

[Burger]

Adding another flight per wing would then tip the S/Fighter over the Porfatis in terms of AS impact. Though the Pft will probably survive much longer, especially backed up by the plasma web and AF traits.

Yeah, the lower a fighter's damage out put is, the more survivable it should be. Pft is one of the most survivable, it has one range 8 weapon, hull 6 protects against AF fire and AF protects against other fighters. So its low damage output is totally justified.

Rutarian has stealth, a good dodge, decent dogfight score and one range 4 weapon to compensate for quite low damage output.

Double-V is the nastiest bomber in the game (!), so it is quite destructable... dodge 3, dogfight -1, nothing else to protect it.

Shadows just get blown up by AF fire and other fighters. They have nothing to justify their low damage output.

But seriously this thread is a brick wall. If 19 pages of consolidated, unified customer feedback, all stating that the Shadows Fighter is rubbish, can't convince Matt that it should be changed, then another 19 won't either. I'm outta here.

 

[TGT]

one wonders why you thought 19 pages would count for anything anyway
welcome to the outside Burger!

 

[Stonehorse]

Don't know about you guys, but I'm looking forward to Third Edition... I'm guessing that the Shadow Fighters will be worth their cost in this new edition.

 

[LaranosTZ]

Matt can sometimes act very much like a brick wall in his opinions, I think this S&P article is proof of that. He essentially just reiterated what he posted earlier in this thread about his opinions on shadow fighters, and pretty much made it clear there wasn't going to be any changes in this matter.

That's certainly not enough to make me quit the game, but it is rather dissapointing that he is willing to ignore not just 19 pages of discussion on the topic, but several posts that pretty much mathmatically prove how poor a fighter it is, and some -very- simple solutions on how to balance things out.

 

[Misiolak]

Is there anyone other than Matt that belives Shadow fighters are ok the way they are now? I know that writing a defending post here is like steppin into a den of lions, but maybe someone is willing to play devils advocate? We know arguments and analisis that state shadow fighters are not good enough (or not many enough :wink: ). Can someone give a calculation proving otherwise? Matt, your opinion is surely based on something - either analisis, playtesting or both. The article is a step in good direction, but we need more facts.

The main question is, are shadow fighters balanced in game. It is fine for them to have statistics they have, so they are what was intended for them. However, just as with any other ship you need to balance it with something. For ships it is prority level. Victory Class Destroyer is beter then a White Star, but they are 3 prority levels apart. For fighters the balancing factor is number of flights per wing. Rutarians are better then Sentris, but the come in wings of 2 per flight, not 4. So back to the question: Are shadow fighters really balanced at 2 flight per wing?

 

[Knight of ne]

I believe that the shadow fighters are ok at the moment. Shadow fighters are good at picking of pesky small ships and those with low Anti-fighter. With hyperspace a shadow fighter can come in at the back of the fleet so enemy fighters can't get to them. Thats my opinion and thats how they worked well in my previous games.

Just my opinion. (Takes cover and waits for the angry mob of people)

Knight of ne