lastbesthope
Mongoose
neko said:
Blue Stars can jump in and out in the same battle under their own power, but they are a special case.
LBH
Shadow Fighters - Just why
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
Blue Stars can jump in and out in the same battle under their own power, but they are a special case.
LBH
I've just read this thread...well bits of it until I got bored.
Thought I would mention that while I grudgingly accept the reasoning behind how Shadow fighters arent really designed optimally as any sort of fighter or bomber, I don't see why this isn't balanced in game terms by adding more numbers (i.e. 3 or 4 per wing as Triggy suggested).
Shadows are probably more vulnerable to fighters than any other fleet (having very limited anti-fighter options) which isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think it's a little too unbalanced as is.
Just my opinion to add to the 25 odd pages worth of disagreement on this
Thought I would mention that while I grudgingly accept the reasoning behind how Shadow fighters arent really designed optimally as any sort of fighter or bomber, I don't see why this isn't balanced in game terms by adding more numbers (i.e. 3 or 4 per wing as Triggy suggested).
Shadows are probably more vulnerable to fighters than any other fleet (having very limited anti-fighter options) which isn't necessarily a bad thing but I think it's a little too unbalanced as is.
Just my opinion to add to the 25 odd pages worth of disagreement on this
Given your Shadows experience I appreciate your comments Hash.
With little in the way of fighter defence and no allies to share from/to, I don't see how 4/wing would be overpowered. Frankly they need it to compete with most races' fighters and survive long enought to attack the capital ships.
With little in the way of fighter defence and no allies to share from/to, I don't see how 4/wing would be overpowered. Frankly they need it to compete with most races' fighters and survive long enought to attack the capital ships.
ShopKeepJon
Mongoose
OK, I didn't expect it to be taken too seriously, but I was hoping for some comment.ShopKeepJon said:
I haven't played enough to understand all of the nuances of the game or to get balance issues at a glance. If the people that do have this kind of experience with ACTA could tell me why this wouldn't work, I'd appreciate it. Answers to questions like this give me a better feel for how the game works as a whole.
ShopKeepJon
ShopKeepJon
Mongoose
I know. Thank you!Da Boss said:I did- I said it was an interesting idea...
Unfortunately, you were the only one. Like I said, I was hoping for some commentary just because I thought it would be interesting and might give me more insights into the game. After all of these pages of posts and after the comments from Matthew, I don't expect any changes either...
ShopKeepJon
It would work until someone took really large stacks of them. Most ships would have trouble due to there being dead arcs etc. This used to happen to Drazi fleets. You wanted to win, hide a ship from the horde and take all fighters. The Drazi typical fleet could never win. You would end up with a rock paper scissors problem. Fleets capable of dealing with the horde of flights would not likely be capable of dealing with the big ships. Or at least that's my first gut instinct. But that may be a hang over from the all fighter fleet days early in first ed.
There is a feel that fighters are the answer to fighters, big ships are the answer to big ships, etc. in the way some folks are approaching the game, so that could be part of why it wasn't even looked at.
I wanted folks to talk about using the main beam on shadow ships as advanced anti-fighter equal to the ad and opening up Intensify Defensive Fire to them, it would reflect exactly how they dealt with fighters in the show, but got no response either. The boards aren't always responsive if you don't follow arguments already laid out.
In a lot of cases folks want to minimize rule changes and feel changes to keep the game familiar.
Ripple
There is a feel that fighters are the answer to fighters, big ships are the answer to big ships, etc. in the way some folks are approaching the game, so that could be part of why it wasn't even looked at.
I wanted folks to talk about using the main beam on shadow ships as advanced anti-fighter equal to the ad and opening up Intensify Defensive Fire to them, it would reflect exactly how they dealt with fighters in the show, but got no response either. The boards aren't always responsive if you don't follow arguments already laid out.
In a lot of cases folks want to minimize rule changes and feel changes to keep the game familiar.
Ripple
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
Just a thought that I was going to post earlier, then something shiney went by......... anyway. I recall a scene where a swarm of Vorlon Fighters overwhelmed a Shadow Ship with the Shadow not being able to bring the beam down on a single fighter. In the cases that I do remember of Shadows killing fighters it was about a flight worth of Frazi. In the show there are a lot of scenes where capital ships take out fighters but it seems that those are generally at a distance from the ship - on the fighters early approach or by AF/Interceptor style weapons. In CtA weapons mechanics have definitive ends to their weapon ranges which allow fighter flights to skirt the edges of range until they are in position of weak arcs and begin their attack run which we don't necessarily see from the show.Ripple said:
That said, I don't like the Charged Pulse from Arma or the AAF of the 2E Vorlons and don't particularly favor a shadow version of AAF, but it's a mechanic developed to counter the serious inability of the Vorlons/Shadow to deal with the younger fighters in place of making Uberfighters for the ancients. As I understand it there are four game mechanics for working with fighters - i. Anti-Fighter type weapons/stats, ii. counter fighters, iii. significant critical immunity (with additional damage immunity), and iv. incorporation of fighters into the main sequence with capital ships.
Everything has it's own problems though. AAF may not be representative, critical immunity may overbalance a fleet, counter-fighters or Uberfighters 'lose general flavor'*, and incorporation would probably require a complete regearing of Initiative and still not solve anything.
A solution might be a destroyer class variant of the Scout at Raid level that trades Stealth & Scout for AAF (multiphase cutters) and Escort or multi-arc PPCs (F8AD/P4AD/S4AD). In the Shadow's case a solution might also be a strong shift in stats so that they are more like Damage: 20, Shields 150/15, Self-Repair 2D6
I thought the scene with the vorlong fighters would be represented by the fact that vorlon fighters are bombers attacking from outside AAF range, therefore the beam was firing in standard mode and they were dodging. The Frazi were at closer range there for could not dodge.
And while it was 'a flight' worth of Frazi, we also never see the 60 plus individual fighters (ten flights) attacking a single ship in the show the way we would in the game.
Ripple
And while it was 'a flight' worth of Frazi, we also never see the 60 plus individual fighters (ten flights) attacking a single ship in the show the way we would in the game.
Ripple
Ripple said:
Regarding fluff and scenes in the show :
Things in the show were FX created to get a "WOW" from the viewers. The fights between ships can also not be considered balanced in every scene. Otherwise every Minbari player would be allowed to take multiple Sharlins in a normal battle.
IMHO it is better to get a balanced fleet list thats captures the feeling of the show and not to copy every aspect of the show.
The people i know want to play a game, have fun and get a change to win - and the winning side should not be decided by the fleet choice.
The current preference for smaller ships also do not catch the feeling of the show - as far as i can remember :roll:
Personally i see many options to change the current situation :
# change the Shadow fighters to make them worth a choice
# give the fleet anti-figther traits similar to the Vorlons ( fighters are still useless but thats ok )
# create a low PL ( Patrol or Skirmish ) Shadow ship similar to the Vorlon Transport to get a better fleet selection
I do not believe that anything will happen ... but that's ok :roll:
Considering the mentioned Scout anti-figther version. I do not believe that this will work. Maybe in a fleet were the main firepower is suited on PL Skirmish or Raid but not if the first suitable combat ship comes on War.
I wasn't saying we should follow every scene exactly, just saying if we have a scene or two, we should try to have an explanation from the game rules to cover it if we can. Otherwise you get the old centauri situation.
Yes its a game, but if the G'Quan has tons of pulse why don't we see if ever fire?
If the Centauri have beams why don't we see them ever fire? (the proposal for second eds changes had the beams shorter range, like 12, so it would have made sense they didn't fire the beams as they were at fairly long range, that got dropped so once again there is no reason the Primus would not have been shooting the beams...sad really, we got so close)
The Omega got it's mini-beams...
Shadows now get 'stunned'...
Vorlons still don't have a 'beam interceptor' but eh...can't have it all...
The fact that you are making something a game doesn't mean you have to fail to be true to the source material. We already make a compromise on fleet selection, so that we have a game, at least keep the few ships we see in the show accurate.
Ripple
Yes its a game, but if the G'Quan has tons of pulse why don't we see if ever fire?
If the Centauri have beams why don't we see them ever fire? (the proposal for second eds changes had the beams shorter range, like 12, so it would have made sense they didn't fire the beams as they were at fairly long range, that got dropped so once again there is no reason the Primus would not have been shooting the beams...sad really, we got so close)
The Omega got it's mini-beams...
Shadows now get 'stunned'...
Vorlons still don't have a 'beam interceptor' but eh...can't have it all...
The fact that you are making something a game doesn't mean you have to fail to be true to the source material. We already make a compromise on fleet selection, so that we have a game, at least keep the few ships we see in the show accurate.
Ripple
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Ripple said:
We do, in 'Fall of Night'.
Ripple said:
It wasn't my intention to put words into your mouth !
After reading your post I think we are both very close together regarding the result we want to get.
The idea is to "catch the spirit of the show" but still get a balanced fleet / game.
If there is something unique/cool/special in the show that can be represented with a rule - do it. If the rule needs to be changed or adapted to keep the game balance - do it.
General I would always prefer the balanced rule set with a show / fluff background.
Thanks for your feedback !
Back to the topic ...
How can the Shadow fighter ( because this is the title of the thread :wink: ) be changed to get it balanced and still get it in line with the show ? IMHO given Shadow figthers the shield trait was a nice idea but it opened the box of the Pandora. It looks very good on paper but as soon as you try to use it you will notice that is almost completely useless for the figther. The fighter should be a valid choice because it is the only Patrol / Skirmish choice - except you want to buy-down which is not always possible.
I'm not even sure about this ... can it be clearly be seen / is it said in the show that Shadow fighters have any kind of shield defence :?:
