Shadow Fighters - Just why

[Target]

Most races when desperate ram. Why can't drazi fighters ram? Aren't they more likely to ram than most other races.
I like the idea only can shoot at the shadow fighters idea but then thats how we resolve our fighter combats in our house rules so kinda have to like it.

 

[Da Boss]

I suppose Game Terms its to make different races different - although it is odd that Dilgar fighters can be both intercepted and recovered by Fleet carrier and Gaim can't.

House rule would work I suppose............would there be any fleets that would not - even Abbai can be part of Holy Crusades (see Hiffs source book ) and Earth, Narn, Minbari and others have all shown their willingness to die for the cause/one etc. Maybe raiders would not........Shadow and Vorlon fighters I have always seen as drones and as such live or die at the command of their Masters so could do it.............

Should they all do same damage? - I supose you could make some equasion mixing speed and hull.............

 

[Sulfurdown]

Since most often ramming is seen as a last desperate effort, what about a house rule that if a player no longer has any viable non-fighter ships on the map, fighters may ram the opponent ships. You could vary it for hull and speed, but it's easier if it's uniform and the impact would actually be based on momentum (sans weapons) so the lighter ships are probably moving faster for a momentum X and the heavier ships are moving slower for a similar X momentum. I'd leave it around "Ram makes a 1AD, Double Damage attack".

 

[greenboy]

Since most often ramming is seen as a last desperate effort, what about a house rule that if a player no longer has any viable non-fighter ships on the map, fighters may ram the opponent ships. You could vary it for hull and speed, but it's easier if it's uniform and the impact would actually be based on momentum (sans weapons) so the lighter ships are probably moving faster for a momentum X and the heavier ships are moving slower for a similar X momentum. I'd leave it around "Ram makes a 1AD, Double Damage attack".

Damage is caused by transfer of kinetic energy so speed is more important than mass K=MV^2

 

[jimmor]

Shadow and Vorlon fighters I have always seen as drones and as such live or die at the command of their Masters so could do it.

I am not sure about the Vorlon but it seems that shadowfighters would make a nice SPLASH! while trying to ram anything solid... Do you remember Narn fighter ramming shadowfighter? Narn went almost through before exploding...

 

[emperorpenguin]

... Do you remember Narn fighter ramming shadowfighter? Narn went almost through before exploding...

err not quite.....

it crashes into the "mouth" and goes boom

 

[jimmor]

Well, perheaps I exagereted a bit yet it was Narn fighter cutting inside the Shadow not the other way. I just hardly imagine shadowfigher making any serious damage on Nova class ship.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Since most often ramming is seen as a last desperate effort, what about a house rule that if a player no longer has any viable non-fighter ships on the map, fighters may ram the opponent ships. You could vary it for hull and speed, but it's easier if it's uniform and the impact would actually be based on momentum (sans weapons) so the lighter ships are probably moving faster for a momentum X and the heavier ships are moving slower for a similar X momentum. I'd leave it around "Ram makes a 1AD, Double Damage attack".

Damage is caused by transfer of kinetic energy so speed is more important than mass K=MV^2

True, however I made some assumptions about the relative speeds and comparative masses all of which are pretty much unknowns. In the end I'd stand on A) simplicity of mechanic and B) negligible difference in relative masses & velocities of fighters in combat.

 

[Misiolak]

I am to play patrol level ambush against Vree.
I would seem a perfect scenario for shadow fighters. Due to their high initiative and hyperspace rules, they can jump in, attack and jump out in next turn, without giving the opponent points for withdrawal.
However, they must score 6vps and above (+vps for shot down fighters), just to overcome the 5vps field bonus for enemy.
Is it possible with only 6 flights against 5patrol of enemy?
Don't think so.
He knows he is facing exactly 6 shadow fighter flights. He will take escorts, fighters, whatever he has just for countering fighters. He will send his fighters to escort duty, making the hard first strike impossible.
If only I had 9 fighters, I could hope to overcome some of his defences. But with only 6, some droping from antifighter, some inable to overcome interceptors and some cought in dogfight - there are not enough left to do any damage...

 

[Da Boss]

Well you can not jump in and out - not allowed for Shadows I believe - or anyone else.

If you are in a campaign I would not bother turning up (best tell your opponent first ) unless you are going to loose a major target ..............

This highlights nicely the problems with only having one (and a bad one at that ) choice at Patrol / Skirmish. Its not fun.

Saying that thats the way the game is intended - ie you loose automtically at low levels - is not either. either the Fleet lists are fully viable or they are not.

I really hope that future rules expansion at least the Shadows more choice even if they don't fix the fighters. Go on make the Shadows happy - they have evolved and adapted

 

[Misiolak]

I already informed the opponent that I probably won't show up.
On the matter of jumping in and out, I thought that if shadow fighters don't need to use SA to leave, than there is no problem. I must re-read the FAQ, but you are probably right

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Aye, the Shadows have been FAQed when it comes to hyperspace. The Shadows are the only race that can't jump in and then out again with jump capable ships unfortunately - any other race jumping in multiple ships can jump in with one jump point, jump out with the second, and have any extra in reserve.

 

[Triggy]

Yeah, in this case your opponent simply takes two Xeel carriers and a Ximm escort and you haven't a prayer of winning.

Although in this case the issue is not the quality of Shadow fighters but that they have no option at Skirmish PL let alone a Patrol PL capital ship.

 

[animus]

Didn't some EA guy named Sinclair try to ram his fighter into some big ship in an episode with some kind of unexpected consequences?

We all know he did - I think ALL fighters should be able to ram. Give them a CQ check to do it and allow the "rammy" fighters (Gaim, Dilgar) an automatic pass. Fits with the series and fits with logic.

 

[Da Boss]

Aye, the Shadows have been FAQed when it comes to hyperspace. The Shadows are the only race that can't jump in and then out again with jump capable ships unfortunately - any other race jumping in multiple ships can jump in with one jump point, jump out with the second, and have any extra in reserve.

odd really since I think they are the White Stars are the only ones who jump in battle and then jump out in the same battle?

 

[Sulfurdown]

Aye, the Shadows have been FAQed when it comes to hyperspace. The Shadows are the only race that can't jump in and then out again with jump capable ships unfortunately - any other race jumping in multiple ships can jump in with one jump point, jump out with the second, and have any extra in reserve.

odd really since I think they are the White Stars are the only ones who jump in battle and then jump out in the same battle?

Fluff wise I believe the White Stars had a tactic where they would jump in and out while making attacks in order to make it look like there were more W/S present then actual. But that was just fluff (and I forget where the source is).

 

[Da Boss]

Was recently reminded of the episode when Deleen was attacked by the Drakh - she jumped out and jumped back to attack them and did not change ships I don't think

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Aye, the Shadows have been FAQed when it comes to hyperspace. The Shadows are the only race that can't jump in and then out again with jump capable ships unfortunately - any other race jumping in multiple ships can jump in with one jump point, jump out with the second, and have any extra in reserve.

odd really since I think they are the White Stars are the only ones who jump in battle and then jump out in the same battle?

Nope. Any (non-shadow) ship can enter from hyperspace and leave back into hyperspace in the same battle - they just can't use their own jump engines for both jumps. Shadows can't do this because their ships can only phase themselves into and out of hyperspace. You can't have the first ship carry the second into realspace, and then have the second ship carry the first back into hyperspace like you can with most races.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Bit unfortunate that. At least they can use their APE-surrogate to run off a board edge (and then jump when no-one is around to quote rules at them )

 

[katadder]

consider the length of a battle. around 12 turns. now it takes 2 turns to jump in, something in the show that takes around 10 seconds. so effectively one of these space battles could be 1min of real time (not saying it is just using as example). not many ships jump in and out that quickly.