Shadow Fighters - Just why

[Misiolak]

Mob :wink:
But as previously stated, hyperspace is hardly avaliable. Sometimes only for attacker. Without it, they can't reach the anemy, as they lack any kind of support. And even if they do jump out of hyperspace, they usually last for 1 round (my experience) as enemy fighters catch them in dogfight, or they are simply shot down.

 

[Da Boss]

I believe that the shadow fighters are ok at the moment. Shadow fighters are good at picking of pesky small ships and those with low Anti-fighter. With hyperspace a shadow fighter can come in at the back of the fleet so enemy fighters can't get to them. Thats my opinion and thats how they worked well in my previous games.

Just my opinion. (Takes cover and waits for the angry mob of people)

Knight of ne

interesting - which race did you play against and did they not protect vulnerable ships with fighters on escort? Also what did you do with them in games without hyperspace..........

thanks

 

[Burger]

I believe that the shadow fighters are ok at the moment. Shadow fighters are good at picking of pesky small ships and those with low Anti-fighter. With hyperspace a shadow fighter can come in at the back of the fleet so enemy fighters can't get to them. Thats my opinion and thats how they worked well in my previous games.

Just my opinion. (Takes cover and waits for the angry mob of people)

Knight of ne

But you have to look at them in comparison to other fighters, not just on their own. How many independently bought wings of Shadow Fighters would it take to kill that pesky small target? And how many independently bought wings of Sky Serpents would it have taken?

I think you'll find it takes a lot more FAP's worth of Shadow fighters.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Mob :wink:
But as previously stated, hyperspace is hardly avaliable. Sometimes only for attacker.

But Shadows can always deploy all their ships in hyperspace, regardless of scenario restrictions, right?

 

[Misiolak]

No,
They can put all their fleet in Hyperspace IF the hypespace is allowed even for one craft, but in most scenarios there is no hyperspace at all.

 

[Da Boss]

No has to be some restrictions otherwise for instance you would have Ambush - Shadows are the defender and start in hyperspace!!!!!

 

[DrSeltsam]

But Shadows can always deploy all their ships in hyperspace, regardless of scenario restrictions, right?

I don't think so. Please check the rules and if you find something that i missed and would allow this i will be happy ... but i don't think so.

The normal rules for hyperspace reserve are used for Shadows - just the way how Shadows enter / leave hyperspace are different.

 

[Da Boss]

The difference with the Shadows is that if the scenario says that a ship of theirs can start in hypersapce - any / all of their ships can - potentially very nasty

 

[Misiolak]

Some math:

Random Scenarios and who can use hyperspace
1:36 Assassination - attacker
2:36 Recon Run - attaker
3:36 Convoy Duty - attacker
4:36 Ambush - attacker
5:36 Space Superiority - both
6:36 Call to Arms - none
5:36 Annihilation - none
4:36 Blocade - none
3:36 Carrier Clash - none
2:36 Flee to the Jump Gate -not playable with shadows*
1:36 Supply Ships - attacker
So in 2x(36-2*)=68 games you have 1+2+3+4+2x5+1=21 games with hyperspace.
Less then one third.

 

[Burger]

Tournaments usually use Call To Arms, Space Superiority and Annihilation. Either rolled randomly or playing one round of each gives 1/3 also.

 

[MustEatBrains]

But Shadows can always deploy all their ships in hyperspace, regardless of scenario restrictions, right?

I don't think so. Please check the rules and if you find something that i missed and would allow this i will be happy ... but i don't think so.

The normal rules for hyperspace reserve are used for Shadows - just the way how Shadows enter / leave hyperspace are different.

Looked it up again, and yes, you are right - wasn´t sure of how it was handled, and promptly ended up being wrong! :roll:

 

[Target]

Shadow fighters just need a upgrade it's pretty simple.
Either more ( not convinced on 3 per flight 4 furies still kick them)
Extend their range to avoid AF &/or 2+ dodge & hull 6 to even compare to a nial which is a great fighter, shadow is too crap.
Don't really want to hear about the drone thing otherwise they should have fighters like the gaim. To me thats what drones are about. Swarms & kamikaze.
It's not like shadows didn't attack races without fighters. Makes the whole fighter jock argument thing shit.

 

[Sulfurdown]

I believe that the shadow fighters are ok at the moment. Shadow fighters are good at picking of pesky small ships and those with low Anti-fighter. With hyperspace a shadow fighter can come in at the back of the fleet so enemy fighters can't get to them. Thats my opinion and thats how they worked well in my previous games.

Just my opinion. (Takes cover and waits for the angry mob of people)

Knight of ne

But you have to look at them in comparison to other fighters, not just on their own. How many independently bought wings of Shadow Fighters would it take to kill that pesky small target? And how many independently bought wings of Sky Serpents would it have taken?

I think you'll find it takes a lot more FAP's worth of Shadow fighters.

Something else is that if you're changing any of the rules other then the Flight Per Wing count, you're adjusting those fighters that are carried on the Shadow Ships. Because of the numbers that come with those ships at that level I doubt it would have a tremendous impact but it should be taken into accout.

In other news - yes the Shadow fighter can be used with it's nasty weapon on those ships like the Vorchan, etc proviso the other player doesn't run any fighter screens or escort ships with the vulnerable ships. But then, the Kotha can also be used to hunt down and destroy Vorchan type ships given enough time. (Sidebar: I'm actually fairly pleased with the new Kotha. For them the Dogfight and their numbers can make them relatively ok interceptor fighters. If nothing else they come in enough that you can tie down almost any other fighters for a couple turns!)

EDIT: Ok, I'm 97% sure I've already asked this. The Shadow fighters, as ships, can take advantage of the special maneuvering rules for turning up to 90 degrees and then moving at double speed?

 

[ShopKeepJon]

EDIT: Ok, I'm 97% sure I've already asked this. The Shadow fighters, as ships, can take advantage of the special maneuvering rules for turning up to 90 degrees and then moving at double speed?

Unfortunately, no. The entry in the fleet list is pretty clear.

Shadow Ships and Shadow Scouts may either use the normal Super-Maneuverability rules or may instead turn up to 90 degrees at the start of its movement and then move up to twice its Speed in a straight line.

Fighters aren't on the list. I'm pretty sure that the Shadow Stalker (as a Shadow Scout variant) can use this rule, but by a precise reading of the rule it can't either...

ShopKeepJon

 

[daishi]

opinions for a houserule for shadow fighters then (since Mongoose are NOT listening to players on this subject) -
increase to 3 flights per wing
shields work against af so requires to hits to take one out
shields do not work against dogfight as per rules
anti fighter 1 (not advanced)

I think this would make them more acceptable & worth the double points yet still not making them overpowered

this also makes them comparable to vorlon fighters as they should be yet still have differences

what say the masses

 

[Ripple]

One thing to keep in mind is that you don't want to up the wing count to freely as your giving away more victory points and they remain just as killable.

To Sulfur above... are you bleedy mad?!... the new Kotha is worthless, possibly even more worthless than previously. They cannot intercept (ie act as interceptors), they give away more victory points than any other fighter, they can't keep up with the ships that actually need fighter escort help. I mean folks don't even launch them off the milani in most games as they add nothing but a turns speed bump. If the Abbai had high initiative at least you could you could try to use them to slow fighters for a turn, but as they are they effectively give enemy fighters protection for a turn from off side quad array shots.

Best use of a Kotha right now is to accept anti-fighter from a Bimith. And for that job your better off going league and buying a friendly races useful fghter...say something Vree...it's not like there is any penalty for the Abbai taking foreign fighters, unless Pak I guess....that would be a lower initiative.

Sorry...but the Kotha is so vulnerable I cannot believe the Abbai would build something so vile. They want to keep everyone alive, that was their thing. They would have build a drone to do the job, or at least build a fighter with a strong hull and good dodge.

Ripple

 

[greenboy]

Sorry...but the Kotha is so vulnerable I cannot believe the Abbai would build something so vile. They want to keep everyone alive, that was their thing. They would have build a drone to do the job, or at least build a fighter with a strong hull and good dodge.

Ripple

I have to agree with this from the fluff you expect hull 6 shield antifighter (low power comms disrupter)

 

[Sulfurdown]

One thing to keep in mind is that you don't want to up the wing count to freely as your giving away more victory points and they remain just as killable.

To Sulfur above... are you bleedy mad?!... the new Kotha is worthless, possibly even more worthless than previously. They cannot intercept (ie act as interceptors), they give away more victory points than any other fighter, they can't keep up with the ships that actually need fighter escort help. I mean folks don't even launch them off the milani in most games as they add nothing but a turns speed bump. If the Abbai had high initiative at least you could you could try to use them to slow fighters for a turn, but as they are they effectively give enemy fighters protection for a turn from off side quad array shots.

Best use of a Kotha right now is to accept anti-fighter from a Bimith. And for that job your better off going league and buying a friendly races useful fghter...say something Vree...it's not like there is any penalty for the Abbai taking foreign fighters, unless Pak I guess....that would be a lower initiative.

Sorry...but the Kotha is so vulnerable I cannot believe the Abbai would build something so vile. They want to keep everyone alive, that was their thing. They would have build a drone to do the job, or at least build a fighter with a strong hull and good dodge.

Ripple

Possibly I am, I'm not going to argue that they are NOT able to take on other fleet Superiority fighters (by any reference to "interceptor fighter" I mean interdiction, not for use as an additional Interceptor) on a 1-1 which is what they will most likely face due to the abysmal Initiative. Yes they give up move VP per wing, after all you get more per wing. It's uses that I was fairly content with was using them to create fields of AF against those incoming AS-Fighters and potentially Superiority Fighters. A couple of escort capital ships and you can create a fairly expansive minefield for any other fighters to get through. A pair of Bisaria on IDF! might have a good chance at clearing some incoming fighters and act as a screen for capitals sitting behind it. (I don't recall if it was officially ruled on whether an Escort could loan it's AF to another Escort and basically stack all the AF down a line or not, I just remember it being asked. If they can, then a few Bisaria and a Wing of Kotha might build up a nice wide net.) As for not keeping up - no, they can't keep up with the Patrol/Skirmish capitals but anything higher they have no problem keeping escort with in the Abbai fleet. I don't favor combined League fleets, if I'm talking about Abbai I mean Abbai, not the seven (nine) current rosters in a Combined League.
I also don't usually play Abbai, 1st or 2nd editions. From what I've seen of them (as usual I'd love to see more BatReps on them) the fleet got hammered pretty badly with 2E. They may have gotten a boost on the beams but it seems like everything else got nerfed. The kotha hull should be a 5 or 6 (I'd expect a Hull 6 to be the Hallmark of the Abbai fleet) or a little bit faster. Even then it's not great but a speed 10 would keep it in pace with the rest of the Abbai fleet.

But I'd still take Kotha backed by the Abbai fleet over the Shadow Fighter backed by the Shadow fleet.

That's where I was coming from.

 

[Ripple]

True enough.

While I am primarily playing Narn/Drazi lately, I prefer Abbai. And by Abbai I mean all Abbai (sometimes with a raider, as they said they used them in first ed fluff).

Keeping up... the issue here was always with the Bimith actually. The Bimith wanted to all power for the first two turns to get in firing position... so two turns put if 24 from starting, even farther third turn, your 'fighter cover' caught up around the fourth turn, or you gave away free shots to virtually everybody. Admittedly it kept up with the Lakara, and now the Juyaca just fine, but they hardly needed the fighter support.

The Brisaria escort with Kotha around as captor mines does work, and I've been using them that way myself, though more often the Bimith tried to help, but it just hasn't been worth the eight vps to put on the table. You say you get more but I don't believe you do. You get more models, but that is not actually more 'value'. VPs are otherwise weighted to the effectiveness of the vessel, but in the one case of purchased fighter flights this is inverted and the less effective you flights are the more vps you give away.

In a Raid level game you give away 10 points for a raid ship, 3 for a patrol and 8?! for a wing of Kotha? (Not sure on those numbers anymore...think those were first ed numbers.

Ripple

On topic, I don't want to see Shadow fights become to many victory points in a smaller games as you don't have the choice of taking a low priority ship instead.

 

[Sulfurdown]

The value of fighters *does* seem to be set up for a per wing basis. It's interesting that in the game a Kotha is worth the same VP as a W/S Fighter or Nial. I get the feeling that this value for a fighter has been batted around with the designers since their inception and it's still in the air as to the best methodology for their calculation. After all - a Gaim swarm of 24 Kliks are worth 24 VP if you use the four patrol points for the wings, but off of the Stuteeka they are nothing (most extreme example I can think of at the moment). It's a disparity.

From that perspective I can definitely see what you mean about not wanting to just "add more flights per wing" as a solution.