Random thought of the morning... TL-16

[MasterGwydion]

TL-16 is cutting edge for the 3I and most of Charted Space, with a few exceptions. I was thinking about the Darrians and how they used to be TL-16, but are not any longer. It got Me to thinking, what other civilizations reached TL-16 and then regressed or, for whatever reason, went extinct.

Anyone know of any Canon civs like this?

 

[tytalan]

TL-16 is cutting edge for the 3I and most of Charted Space, with a few exceptions. I was thinking about the Darrians and how they used to be TL-16, but are not any longer. It got Me to thinking, what other civilizations reached TL-16 and then regressed or, for whatever reason, went extinct.

Anyone know of any Canon civs like this?

The imperium has some TL 16 at places like the Depots but it’s mostly experimental. The Darrians were doing research when they Trigger the star Trigger which kill much of their infrastructure and they lost most of the research. The damage was massive and hit the whole of Darrians. So they didn’t regressed as much as had a apocalypse.

Other than the Darrians and the ancients I’m pretty sure the rest are topped off at 15. In fact originally (not sure if it’s still true) only the ones with TL 15 was the imperium the rest were topped off at 14.

Now none of this is to say someone hasn’t slipped in a TL 16 on some sector map but I don’t know about it. Interesting bit of trivia originally the Black Globes were an artifact from the ancients that the imperium found a clutch of and had a finite number because they were TL16.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The imperium has some TL 16 at places like the Depots but it’s mostly experimental. The Darrians were doing research when they Trigger the star Trigger which kill much of their infrastructure and they lost most of the research. The damage was massive and hit the whole of Darrians. So they didn’t regressed as much as had a apocalypse.

Other than the Darrians and the ancients I’m pretty sure the rest are topped off at 15. In fact originally (not sure if it’s still true) only the ones with TL 15 was the imperium the rest were topped off at 14.

Now none of this is to say someone hasn’t slipped in a TL 16 on some sector map but I don’t know about it. Interesting bit of trivia originally the Black Globes were an artifact from the ancients that the imperium found a clutch of and had a finite number because they were TL16.

Vincennes is TL-16 and not experimental. Specifically mentioned in MgT2e in Behind the Claw. Not sure about outside civs.

The most famous world in Deneb is Vincennes, partly for its TL16 and partly for its role as the base of the infamous Humbolt family. At Vincennes, the FGMP-16 prototype is undergoing second-generation trials. Organic computers are on the horizon, promising a large improvement in starship automation. Droptank configurations hold out hope of fuel-minimal freighters and liners, and experimental jump-6 x-boats are being tested between Magash and Kubishush, and Kubishush and Vincennes. This position at the cutting edge of Imperial technology should make Vincennes the foremost world, and its duke the foremost noble, in the sector. At least, the Duke of Vincennes thinks so. Others are determined to make sure this does not happen.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yeah, but Vincennes and the other 2 TL-16 Imperial worlds are current TL-16s, not former TL-16s who are now either extinct or regressed to a lower TL, via apocalypse or whatever cause.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah, but Vincennes and the other 2 TL-16 Imperial worlds are current TL-16s, not former TL-16s who are now either extinct or regressed to a lower TL, via apocalypse or whatever cause.

What are the other two Imperial TL-16 worlds?

 

[MasterGwydion]

What are the other two Imperial TL-16 worlds?

Pashus (Deneb 1432) and Gannvair (Fornast 3206)

 

[Sigtrygg]

Go and look at Massilia sector as detailed in Knightfall - 24 TL16 worlds.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Pashus (Deneb 1432) and Gannvair (Fornast 3206)

Not related to your question, but looking at Pashus, it is a poor, nonindustrial world with 80k people. The tech level there is solely because of Research Station Zeta and its work on jumpspace, and the cutting edge work they are doing on jump drives in the push for J6. So, not really a TL-16 "world" in my opinion.

Gannvair has a group of "mad scientists and engineers." The asteroid belt system has 10,000 people, most of them just belters mining stuff. The scientists are working on sensors and related computing and the engineers on power systems. This is more like an unofficial research station, and not really a "world" at that tech level either.

Vincennes is a major industrial world with ten billion people that has actually achieved TL-16 and it is permeating through their society and spreading to other worlds via trade in TL-16 good and via TL-16 ships being built. That's not really relevant, but I wanted to know how the three systems related to one another. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Sigtrygg]

World TLs have nothing to do with Imperial Research Station of IN Depot TLs.

I wonder if there is a way to search Traveller Map for Imperial TL 16 worlds...

 

[Terry Mixon]

World TLs have nothing to do with Imperial Research Station of IN Depot TLs.

I wonder if there is a way to search Traveller Map for Imperial TL 16 worlds...

They must or those two systems wouldn't be TL-16. That or someone made a mistake in classifying them as such.

UWP:*-G does a search for TL-16 worlds.

 

[Sigtrygg]

They must or those two systems wouldn't be TL-16. That or someone made a mistake in classifying them as such.

UWP:*-G does a search for TL-16 worlds.

Go and look at the TL of every world with an IRS or an IN Depot. Let me know how many of them are TL16.

As I said earlier, there are 24 of them in one Imperial sector alone.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Go and look at the TL of every world with an IRS or an IN Depot. Let me know how many of them are TL16.

As I said earlier, there are 24 of them in one Imperial sector alone.

Agreed, they are not, but an asteroid system with only 10,000 people, mostly miners, didn't make it to TL-16. That is the scientists and engineers and their unofficial research station. The other place is a poor nonindustrial world with 80k people. They can't support anything like that tech level. Once again, something else is driving it.

I'll go look at the worlds you've mentioned and come back to comment. I can already tell you my first question about them. Are they official? Vincennes is. Now, off to look at the worlds you mentioned.

 

[Terry Mixon]

When I download the sector file for the Massilia sector from TravellerMap, it has no TL-16 worlds. The traveller Wiki says it has them, but not the actual data. Plenty of TL-15 worlds (31), but zero TL-16.

Even though the wiki page mentions 26 TL-16 worlds in Milieu: 1100 , it also says the following:

The average technology level is 11 (with most between 8 and 13). The highest technology level is 15 at Kaggushus (Massilia 0402), Ticularosta (Massilia 0508), Arar (Massilia 1104), Suttas Belts (Massilia 1601), Khisham (Massilia 1910), and Germer (Massilia 2004).

Honestly, the evidence to support any TL-16 systems there isn't compelling. I suspect these worlds you mentioned are unofficial or fan created. Maybe not, but they also aren't really that tech level in MgT2e Charted Space.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Then TravellerMap is wrong.
They are in the official GDW MT adventure Knightfall where the sector is detailed.

 

[Geir]

Then TravellerMap is wrong.
They are in the official GDW MT adventure Knightfall where the sector is detailed.

After which the T5 Second Survey team (or at least Don McKinney) went back and retconned a bunch of systems (mostly Size, to be fair). Since it has the green 'Official' label as opposed to the orange 'Under Review', then I think it's been signed off on. Plus ,there are a few decades (and a couple of wars) between 1105 and Knightfall, which was in the 1120s. Or circa 1120 as it says in the beginning.

 

[Sigtrygg]

GDW wrote the adventure, I consider it more canonical than most.

 

[Terry Mixon]

GDW wrote the adventure, I consider it more canonical than most.

That's your right in your Traveller universe. In the official Charted Space for MgT2e, it isn't the case.

Mongoose owns it all now, so they have the final word, or we don't have an official, common setting. Things have been retconned in getting to where we are, and it seems the tech levels of these worlds was one of them.

 

[Terry Mixon]

After which the T5 Second Survey team (or at least Don McKinney) went back and retconned a bunch of systems (mostly Size, to be fair). Since it has the green 'Official' label as opposed to the orange 'Under Review', then I think it's been signed off on. Plus ,there are a few decades (and a couple of wars) between 1105 and Knightfall, which was in the 1120s. Or circa 1120 as it says in the beginning.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Geir]

Thanks for the clarification.

And if you change the Travellermap view to 1120, it does show them as TL16

 

[Terry Mixon]

And if you change the Travellermap view to 1120, it does show them as TL16
View attachment 2407

Good to know. Maybe Vincennes sends them lots of tech to boost them.

Of course, it doesn't really mean much to the main timeline. As Mongoose likely doesn't want to wreck what they're building, I suspect that the rebellion will never officially happen.