Changing the TL of items

[MasterGwydion]

So, I finally found some info on bio-cybernetics. CSC under augments. TL-16. It also says that some cultures in Charted Space where bio-technology is more common, may have these available at lower TLs. How does that work within the rules? Something is either one TL or another. How can it be one TL for one civilization and a different TL for another civilization? Doesn't this entirely break the concept of TL? If any technology can be any TL, then the TLs listed in the books are what? Suggestions? TL-1 White Globe Generators? Internal Combustion Engines not available until TL-23? I understand saying that on a TL9 world, some things may be at the level of TL-10 or TL-8. That is not what this is saying. This is saying that other civilizations within Charted Space could have J-1 Technology as cutting edge technology at TL-1 or TL-16. How does this square with the rules?

Wouldn't the way to explain this within the rules be, to simply state that the world's TL when it comes to bio-robotics and bio-cybernetics is 6 or whatever TLs below its listed TL? Just like a planet can be TL-8 for computers, TL-7 for everything else, but TL-5 for medicine in a culture that believes that medical science creates weakness in those who use it.

Also, as a general question. What is the TL of psionics in the 3I? I would think that it would be much higher in Zhodani Space than in Imperial Space. Psychotherapy + Psionics has to be better than just Psychotherapy alone. Psychotherapy came about in the 1800s, so TL-3. Psychotherapy + Psionics has a much greater capability, so should have an increased TL. Unless a civilization that grows starships would be considered TL-0?

 

[agentwigggles]

It doesnt need rules.
One of the unstated premise of the CSC and equipment in general, is its from the view of 3rd Imperium and its many client states.
They dont invest in Bioaugments, because the 3I doesnt quite like aguments in general.
Zhodani are an equiv TL to the 3I, but have way more Psionic understanding and psionic equipment. They invested in it.
To my understanding the only thing that has a fairly hard TL requirement, is Gravitics and Jump.
Gravitics needs needs something akin tot he Standard Model and General and Special Relativity. It needs fairly capable computers, which implies the need of IC boards and current CPUs.
And Jump needs the above plus winning the ten lotteries day for a thousand years. Jumptech is optional not inevitable.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It doesnt need rules.
One of the unstated premise of the CSC and equipment in general, is its from the view of 3rd Imperium and its many client states.
They dont invest in Bioaugments, because the 3I doesnt quite like aguments in general.
Zhodani are an equiv TL to the 3I, but have way more Psionic understanding and psionic equipment. They invested in it.
To my understanding the only thing that has a fairly hard TL requirement, is Gravitics and Jump.
Gravitics needs needs something akin tot he Standard Model and General and Special Relativity. It needs fairly capable computers, which implies the need of IC boards and current CPUs.
And Jump needs the above plus winning the ten lotteries day for a thousand years. Jumptech is optional not inevitable.

How does that work? TL in the CRB is independent of any setting. It is not only limited to Charted Space. That is the generic TL. Charted Space rules are for Setting Books, not Core Rule Books.

 

[agentwigggles]

Equipment and TL are largely unrelated.
Equipment is a product of culture and society. It gets invented and produced from need and economics.
Traveller wants to make them related. Though as from the above, acknowledgs they arent.
ANd it further acknowledges this, by having low TL planets that its pop can use higher tl equipment.
Viliani took centuries to go from J1 to J2 and Solomani took decades to g0 from J1 to J2. Viliani by their culture are slow, and conserative. Solomani were driven by a need to exhand a requirement of its nearest system being J2 away.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Equipment and TL are largely unrelated.
Equipment is a product of culture and society. It gets invented and produced from need and economics.
Traveller wants to make them related. Though as from the above, acknowledgs they arent.
ANd it further acknowledges this, by having low TL planets that its pop can use higher tl equipment.
Viliani took centuries to go from J1 to J2 and Solomani took decades to g0 from J1 to J2. Viliani by their culture are slow, and conserative. Solomani were driven by a need to exhand a requirement of its nearest system being J2 away.

CRB

"TECH LEVELSThe concept of Tech Levels (or TL) runs through Traveller in most of its universes. Tech Levels measure the scientific capacity of a world and the complexity and effectiveness of a piece of equipment."

None of your Charted Space references actually address the issue.

Vilani took centuries to go from J-1 (TL-9) to J-2 (TL-11)

Solomani took decades to go from J-1 (TL-9) to J-2 (TL-11)

See what both of those have in common? Tech Level. The TLs are the same. How long it took them to get there doesn't matter and is not represented by the TL number or letter. They both represent the same levels of technological capability.

 

[Nelphine]

I think in this case, what it means is that if a culture is say TL12 overall, they might still have bio cybernetics despite it being TL16 (so that culture has higher TL in that one field.)

If you're setting it in a totally different world, it might just occur at TL 12. (Personally, I think the 'accurate' way to do it would have been to say it was TL 12 but the 3I is stagnant in that field and wouldn't develop it until they were generally TL 16. But since practically the 3I is the most used setting, that would have been confusing, so doing it the way they did makes the most sense.)

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think in this case, what it means is that if a culture is say TL12 overall, they might still have bio cybernetics despite it being TL16 (so that culture has higher TL in that one field.)

If you're setting it in a totally different world, it might just occur at TL 12. (Personally, I think the 'accurate' way to do it would have been to say it was TL 12 but the 3I is stagnant in that field and wouldn't develop it until they were generally TL 16. But since practically the 3I is the most used setting, that would have been confusing, so doing it the way they did makes the most sense.)

I agree with your "more accurate" observation. They should change it in the CRB then and list the limitation in the Setting Books, since that is setting dependent, not rules system dependent. Just like the Astrogator needing to be sentient is only in the Charted Space setting.

 

[NOLATrav]

MegaTraveller had Common High and Common Low TLs for each world, they lived on a spectrum across different industries and paradigms. Like all things MT, it was super fiddly and didn’t give much for all the effort it required.

Point is, there is canon indicating that TL can represent a range of knowledge, each world can excel in certain areas and lag behind in others.

IMTU I allow a range of +3/-3 TLs on any given world across six major paradigms:
Energy, Habitat, Medicine, Transport, Communications and Military.

 

[MasterGwydion]

MegaTraveller had Common High and Common Low TLs for each world, they lived on a spectrum across different industries and paradigms. Like all things MT, it was super fiddly and didn’t give much for all the effort it required.

Point is, there is canon indicating that TL can represent a range of knowledge, each world can excel in certain areas and lag behind in others.

IMTU I allow a range of +3/-3 TLs on any given world across six major paradigms:
Energy, Habitat, Medicine, Transport, Communications and Military.

This isn't a problem. My question is why is bio-technology TL-16 if that is only supposed to apply to Charted Space? Shouldn't TL-5 bio-technology allow flight? TL-9 Bio-technology allow biological J-1 organisms? TL-1 bio-technology allow organisms to be created with claws?

By "bio-technology" I mean technology that is entirely biological. To help narrow the definition.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I agree with your "more accurate" observation. They should change it in the CRB then and list the limitation in the Setting Books, since that is setting dependent, not rules system dependent. Just like the Astrogator needing to be sentient is only in the Charted Space setting.

Except it isn't. In the vast body of work that describes charted space this ridiculous idea doesn't exits. It popped up as a bit of fanon made canon in a supplement, wasn't picked up by the secret squirrel squad, and was repeated in another supplement.

 

[MarkAlexander]

Except it isn't. In the vast body of work that describes charted space this ridiculous idea doesn't exits. It popped up as a bit of fanon made canon in a supplement, wasn't picked up by the secret squirrel squad, and was repeated in another supplement.

Who are the secret squirrel squad? Which makes me think, new race, uplifted squirrels.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The "inner circle" - the people who are supposed to know the Traveller corpus better than me and can spot things like ion weapons, personal energy shields, ansible networks and a sophont required to jump have no precedent within the Third Imperium setting and shouldn't make it through editing.
Unless they are deliberate changes in which case they need to have the unintended consequence squad then take over.

 

[MarkAlexander]

I see. It shows a real commitment to the game at a deep level. How long have you been playing Traveller?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Since 1979, I still have my 1977 edition books which were bought in 1980.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[MarkAlexander]

Since 1979, I still have my 1977 edition books which were bought in 1980.

Impressive, you are an elder of the gaming tribe.