Sutek said:
argo said:
There is no distinction in the rules between "grappler" and "grapplee". You are either engaged in a grapple or you aren't. If you are engaged in a grapple you take all the "consequences of grappling".
Mmmm...not really. At the beginning of the Skills section it states that the use of the word "you" means "you, the character using this skill". That's universally set up throughout the book. Since all the first four consequences refer only to "you" it implies that the only pertain to the initiator of the grapple.
Also, the statement "regardless of who started the grapple" being made after the four consequences of grappling indicates that this is an ammendment; something different then indicated previously. It is a clarification that "the first four things apply to the one who started the grapple, while the following things can occur regardless of who started the grapple."
I'll be honest here, in all my years playing d20 you are the only person I've ever seen attempt to make this argument. Thousands of people read that section and come away with that the grapple penalties apply to everybody involved, only you read it differently.
Let me try arguing it this way. The "Grappling Consequences" section states "While you are grappling ..." and then goes on to list the penalties (loss of Dex bonus, etc). It does not say "when you start a grapple" or "when you are grappled" but "While you are
grappling" that is, while you are participating in a grappple. Likewise the "If You Are Grappling" section states "When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple)..." and then goes on to list what actions you can take while grappling. To me the intrepration seems clear: there is no difference between the grappler (who started the grapple) and the grapplee (who was grappled). You are either participating in a grapple or you aren't. The fact that they make the statments "regardless of who started the grapple" after the consequences of grappling is logically irrelevant because the Consequences of Grappling section does not state that it applys to a person statring a grapple but a person
participating in a grapple. The usage of the word "you" is logically irrelevant because "you" can participate in a grapple without starting it.
And if that argument isn't enough let me try this. Under the "Joining a Grapple" section it states that if your target is already grappling you can attempt to grapple him and he does not get an AoO and you do not have to make the initial touch attack. Now if the subject of a grapple does not suffer the Grappling Consequences and still threatens squares and still keeps his Dex bonus then why doesnt' he get to make an AoO and why don't you still need to make a touch attack?
Anyway, that is enough on that subject.
argo said:
If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.
sutek said:
Is that a S&P rule? It's not in the AE book.
argo said:
Actually its a rule for monsters, you'll find it under the description of the Improved Grab ability.
That must be OGL or D&D, because it's not in either Conan edition. (pg 296AE or OE). ALl it says is that Improved Grab doesn't provoke AoOs, the animal does not count as Grappling so it still threatens spaces and can move normally. Where is the -20 stuff from?
And this is what I get for posting from memory when my book isn't in front of me.

Yes, this is the rule for dnd/d20 and yes it seems it is one of the little changes they implemented in Conan.
Nothing to see here folks, move along... :roll:
Sutek said:
hehe - arbitrary is the right word. If both individuals are in the same space, and that's what it says happens in a Grapple situation, then one of them has to be blocking the other at some point, right? I mean, that's why character's can't move through opponent squares and all that. Does it follow tat because noone is threatening any square that other characters can move right through the Grapple square? That makesa no sense either. You see where I'm coming from? Too many thing go wrong when you look at it closely. It get's super far out when you consider what might be the case with multiple opponents involved in a grapple - they can't all be in the same square! (lol)
Something is screwey.
Yeah, arbitrary. One thing I've learned about gamming in general though and d20 in particular is that in many situations it is better to simply make a complex situation simple by making a single rulling and sticking to it. Realism be dammned! 8)
And as for the other points you brought up here. Moving through a space with grapplers seems to be a bit of a gray area. I would rule that you can move past as though it was unoucpied. I have a reason for that but if you want me to explain then maybe we should take it elsewhere. And yes, if multiple people are grappling they all occupy the same 5'x5' square.
argo said:
Yeah, grappling is mega powerful. On the downside though grappling is:
-hard to do unless you are considerably higher level and/or have specalized in it
-risky if the target has any (thief) friends nearby as you are subject to all the same penalties he is
-takes you out of the fight with respect to other enemies, grappling is a poor tactic when your party is outnumbered
-flat out useless against anything larger than you and/or non-humanoid
- Not hard to do at all. All you need is a decent STR and Improved Unarmed so you don't incur the AoO for starting a grapple.
- Not sure I understand you here. Are you saying it's risky to the held, or to others? I know it's risky to get held and have a thief that can sneak attack.
- but it's easy to get back on top because it becomes easier to eliminate opponents much more quickly. Killing is easier once a target is held.
- I'm not sure that's true. Grapple defence is only +8 for Large creatures instead of the +4 that Medium creatures get (presumable why the -4 to DV while Pinned? To negate some portion of size?)
1) actually a person with Improved Unarmed does still provoke an AoO. Secondly a grapple check includes your BAB so if you don't have a full BAB and/or the other guy is higher level than you then you can quickly be outclassed.
2) it is risky to start a grapple if your target has friends around because starting a grapple means you loose your Dex etc. etc... You expose yourself to lots of nastyness (unless you also have freinds to protect your sorry self, but then they are limiting themselves to protecting you).
3) doesn't matter, grappling is still a sub-optimal tatctic when your party is outnumbered (see point 2 for one reason why). One person usually cannot kill a grappled target quickly because you are limited to light weapons and unarmed damage. So you are vulneurable for several rounds while you try to choke the guy you are holding. Killing a guy quickly with a grapple means having a freind to stick him while you hold and that means devoting even more manpower to taking down one guy while the party is outnumbered. I'm not saying it is universally a bad idea but in general a guy with Power Attack and Cleave will be more usefull when outnumbered than a guy with Improved Unarmed Strike and Imp Grapple.
4) Bigger creatures get a special size bonus to their
grapple check (the opposed roll you make to do anything in a grapple) this bonus boils down to +4 for each step in the size category. That bonus is
nasty, espically when you consider big creatures also usually have a really good Str and probably a decent BAB as well. Long story short, if the monster is an appropriate challenge for you in the first place then attempting to grapple a big creature is an uphill battle at best and a disaster in the making at worst. Oh, and in addition to that you simply can't establish a hold on something two size categories bigger than you anyway :wink:
Grappling, like tripping and disarming, is a specalized tactict that works best against humanoids of your own size and about your own power level or lower. That is one reason why these combat options are slightly better than a basic attack; you aren't going to go using them against a colossal size dragon.