Quesion about grappling

Trodax said:
Philip_fry said:
3. Grappling combatants attacked with ranged weapons count as having soft cover as stated in the defense modifier charts.
No, you don't get cover from being in a grapple (cover would give you a bonus (+4?) to your defense). Instead all ranged attacks have to randomize (50-50 chance if there are two grapplers) who gets hit if fired into a grapple. This is stated under footnote #3 in the Defence Modifier chart.

You´re right, just quoted from memory and got that mixed up.
 
argo said:
There is no distinction in the rules between "grappler" and "grapplee". You are either engaged in a grapple or you aren't. If you are engaged in a grapple you take all the "consequences of grappling".

Mmmm...not really. At the beginning of the Skills section it states that the use of the word "you" means "you, the character using this skill". That's universally set up throughout the book. Since all the first four consequences refer only to "you" it implies that the only pertain to the initiator of the grapple.

Also, the statement "regardless of who started the grapple" being made after the four consequences of grappling indicates that this is an ammendment; something different then indicated previously. It is a clarification that "the first four things apply to the one who started the grapple, while the following things can occur regardless of who started the grapple."

argo said:
The primary function of grappling is to force the other guy to stop whatever he is doing and focus on grappling you, the secondary function is to make him vulneurable to your buddies attack's. Either way its about imposing the grappling penalties on him (espically the loose dex bonus and can't move penalties).

I agree in principle, but it's far too easy for combatants outside the grapple to attack into it and not hit the wrong guy than is is for the person who started the grapple to do more attacking on his target. It's like the scenario Raven mentioned wher eone guy comes from behind, grabs his opponent, and drives a dagger into his throat. That's harder to accomplish than grabbing the opponent and having a buddy jab him in the throat. I find that flawed.

argo said:
If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.
sutek said:
Is that a S&P rule? It's not in the AE book.
argo said:
Actually its a rule for monsters, you'll find it under the description of the Improved Grab ability.

That must be OGL or D&D, because it's not in either Conan edition. (pg 296AE or OE). ALl it says is that Improved Grab doesn't provoke AoOs, the animal does not count as Grappling so it still threatens spaces and can move normally. Where is the -20 stuff from?
argo said:
sutek said:
Then they grapple one another and stand there waiting ot be stabbed? That makes no sense at all. A grapple can be the "arm around the neck" move wher eyou hold the guy so a buddy can jab him full of holes, but it can also be rolling around on the ground wrestling.
*shrug* yeah, and in other cases it makes perfect sense. Like if the "grapple" is you holding the guy in a full-nelson, in that case your friend should be able to hit him in melee without risking hitting you. It is just one of those places where they simplified the d20 rules for ease of play.

argo said:
No, as Trodax correctly pointed out to us there is no chance of targeting the wrong person in melee but a random chance of targeting any grappler with a ranged attack. The rules for cover wouldn't apply because all the grapplers are sharing the same space (for cover to apply it has to be between your space and the attacker's space). Again this is an arbitrary rule designed for ease of play.

hehe - arbitrary is the right word. If both individuals are in the same space, and that's what it says happens in a Grapple situation, then one of them has to be blocking the other at some point, right? I mean, that's why character's can't move through opponent squares and all that. Does it follow tat because noone is threatening any square that other characters can move right through the Grapple square? That makesa no sense either. You see where I'm coming from? Too many thing go wrong when you look at it closely. It get's super far out when you consider what might be the case with multiple opponents involved in a grapple - they can't all be in the same square! (lol)

Something is screwey.

argo said:
Yeah, grappling is mega powerful. On the downside though grappling is:
-hard to do unless you are considerably higher level and/or have specalized in it
-risky if the target has any (thief) friends nearby as you are subject to all the same penalties he is
-takes you out of the fight with respect to other enemies, grappling is a poor tactic when your party is outnumbered
-flat out useless against anything larger than you and/or non-humanoid

- Not hard to do at all. All you need is a decent STR and Improved Unarmed so you don't incur the AoO for starting a grapple.
- Not sure I understand you here. Are you saying it's risky to the held, or to others? I know it's risky to get held and have a thief that can sneak attack.
- but it's easy to get back on top because it becomes easier to eliminate opponents much more quickly. Killing is easier once a target is held.
- I'm not sure that's true. Grapple defence is only +8 for Large creatures instead of the +4 that Medium creatures get (presumable why the -4 to DV while Pinned? To negate some portion of size?)
 
Okay- In so much as I am following this I get these conclusions:

[Note- all of the below examples assume all people participating in the Grapple are of the same Size]

If you are participating in a Grapple but not Pinned and do not possess the Improved Grapple Feat:

-To all those who are not participating in the Grapple you are DV 10 and subject to being Sneak Attacked by them

-You cannot move or threaten adjacent spaces

-You may retain your full Dodge [but not Parry] DV against any other participants in the Grapple and are not subject to being Sneak Attacked by them.

-People adjacent to you may attack you with melee weapons without a chance of hitting another participant of the Grapple.

-People shooting into the Grapple hit random targets

If you are participating in a Grapple but not Pinned and do possess the Improved Grapple Feat all of the above is the same with the following differences:

-You may move and threaten squares. [Would this not mean the other Grappling character(s) move along with you so long as the Grapple continues?]

-You may use the Human Shield Combat Manuever to provide cover against attacks

-You may use the Choke Combat Manuever on another person in the Grapple

If you are Pinned:

-Your effective DV against all attackers outside the Grapple is 1. You are eligible to be subject to a Sneak Attack by them.

-Your effective DV against other people in the Grapple is 5. You are eligible to be subject to a Sneak Attack by them.

-You may make no other action than trying to escape the Pin. You cannot even use a Free Action to speak if the one Pinning you does not allow it.

-You may not be subject to coup de grace[sp?]

That about right?
 
Sutek said:
argo said:
There is no distinction in the rules between "grappler" and "grapplee". You are either engaged in a grapple or you aren't. If you are engaged in a grapple you take all the "consequences of grappling".

Mmmm...not really. At the beginning of the Skills section it states that the use of the word "you" means "you, the character using this skill". That's universally set up throughout the book. Since all the first four consequences refer only to "you" it implies that the only pertain to the initiator of the grapple.

Also, the statement "regardless of who started the grapple" being made after the four consequences of grappling indicates that this is an ammendment; something different then indicated previously. It is a clarification that "the first four things apply to the one who started the grapple, while the following things can occur regardless of who started the grapple."
I'll be honest here, in all my years playing d20 you are the only person I've ever seen attempt to make this argument. Thousands of people read that section and come away with that the grapple penalties apply to everybody involved, only you read it differently.

Let me try arguing it this way. The "Grappling Consequences" section states "While you are grappling ..." and then goes on to list the penalties (loss of Dex bonus, etc). It does not say "when you start a grapple" or "when you are grappled" but "While you are grappling" that is, while you are participating in a grappple. Likewise the "If You Are Grappling" section states "When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple)..." and then goes on to list what actions you can take while grappling. To me the intrepration seems clear: there is no difference between the grappler (who started the grapple) and the grapplee (who was grappled). You are either participating in a grapple or you aren't. The fact that they make the statments "regardless of who started the grapple" after the consequences of grappling is logically irrelevant because the Consequences of Grappling section does not state that it applys to a person statring a grapple but a person participating in a grapple. The usage of the word "you" is logically irrelevant because "you" can participate in a grapple without starting it.

And if that argument isn't enough let me try this. Under the "Joining a Grapple" section it states that if your target is already grappling you can attempt to grapple him and he does not get an AoO and you do not have to make the initial touch attack. Now if the subject of a grapple does not suffer the Grappling Consequences and still threatens squares and still keeps his Dex bonus then why doesnt' he get to make an AoO and why don't you still need to make a touch attack?

Anyway, that is enough on that subject.

argo said:
If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.
sutek said:
Is that a S&P rule? It's not in the AE book.
argo said:
Actually its a rule for monsters, you'll find it under the description of the Improved Grab ability.

That must be OGL or D&D, because it's not in either Conan edition. (pg 296AE or OE). ALl it says is that Improved Grab doesn't provoke AoOs, the animal does not count as Grappling so it still threatens spaces and can move normally. Where is the -20 stuff from?
And this is what I get for posting from memory when my book isn't in front of me. :oops: Yes, this is the rule for dnd/d20 and yes it seems it is one of the little changes they implemented in Conan.

Nothing to see here folks, move along... :roll:


Sutek said:
hehe - arbitrary is the right word. If both individuals are in the same space, and that's what it says happens in a Grapple situation, then one of them has to be blocking the other at some point, right? I mean, that's why character's can't move through opponent squares and all that. Does it follow tat because noone is threatening any square that other characters can move right through the Grapple square? That makesa no sense either. You see where I'm coming from? Too many thing go wrong when you look at it closely. It get's super far out when you consider what might be the case with multiple opponents involved in a grapple - they can't all be in the same square! (lol)

Something is screwey.
Yeah, arbitrary. One thing I've learned about gamming in general though and d20 in particular is that in many situations it is better to simply make a complex situation simple by making a single rulling and sticking to it. Realism be dammned! 8)

And as for the other points you brought up here. Moving through a space with grapplers seems to be a bit of a gray area. I would rule that you can move past as though it was unoucpied. I have a reason for that but if you want me to explain then maybe we should take it elsewhere. And yes, if multiple people are grappling they all occupy the same 5'x5' square.

argo said:
Yeah, grappling is mega powerful. On the downside though grappling is:
-hard to do unless you are considerably higher level and/or have specalized in it
-risky if the target has any (thief) friends nearby as you are subject to all the same penalties he is
-takes you out of the fight with respect to other enemies, grappling is a poor tactic when your party is outnumbered
-flat out useless against anything larger than you and/or non-humanoid

- Not hard to do at all. All you need is a decent STR and Improved Unarmed so you don't incur the AoO for starting a grapple.
- Not sure I understand you here. Are you saying it's risky to the held, or to others? I know it's risky to get held and have a thief that can sneak attack.
- but it's easy to get back on top because it becomes easier to eliminate opponents much more quickly. Killing is easier once a target is held.
- I'm not sure that's true. Grapple defence is only +8 for Large creatures instead of the +4 that Medium creatures get (presumable why the -4 to DV while Pinned? To negate some portion of size?)
1) actually a person with Improved Unarmed does still provoke an AoO. Secondly a grapple check includes your BAB so if you don't have a full BAB and/or the other guy is higher level than you then you can quickly be outclassed.

2) it is risky to start a grapple if your target has friends around because starting a grapple means you loose your Dex etc. etc... You expose yourself to lots of nastyness (unless you also have freinds to protect your sorry self, but then they are limiting themselves to protecting you).

3) doesn't matter, grappling is still a sub-optimal tatctic when your party is outnumbered (see point 2 for one reason why). One person usually cannot kill a grappled target quickly because you are limited to light weapons and unarmed damage. So you are vulneurable for several rounds while you try to choke the guy you are holding. Killing a guy quickly with a grapple means having a freind to stick him while you hold and that means devoting even more manpower to taking down one guy while the party is outnumbered. I'm not saying it is universally a bad idea but in general a guy with Power Attack and Cleave will be more usefull when outnumbered than a guy with Improved Unarmed Strike and Imp Grapple.

4) Bigger creatures get a special size bonus to their grapple check (the opposed roll you make to do anything in a grapple) this bonus boils down to +4 for each step in the size category. That bonus is nasty, espically when you consider big creatures also usually have a really good Str and probably a decent BAB as well. Long story short, if the monster is an appropriate challenge for you in the first place then attempting to grapple a big creature is an uphill battle at best and a disaster in the making at worst. Oh, and in addition to that you simply can't establish a hold on something two size categories bigger than you anyway :wink:

Grappling, like tripping and disarming, is a specalized tactict that works best against humanoids of your own size and about your own power level or lower. That is one reason why these combat options are slightly better than a basic attack; you aren't going to go using them against a colossal size dragon.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
That about right?
Sounds good to me, Raven! All except:

Raven Blackwell said:
If you are participating in a Grapple but not Pinned and do possess the Improved Grapple Feat all of the above is the same with the following differences:

-You may move and threaten squares.
No, all the Improved Grapple Feat does is prevent an AoO from being provoked when you inititiate a grapple and give you a +4 bonus on all grapple checks. You may be confusing it with the Improved Grab ability which can only be had by certain monsters (its on page 296 of the AE).
 
OK, I have another question to further confuse this thread...

Can you sneak attack an opponent that you are Pinning? (People outside of the grapple can do it for sure, but I'm talking about the guy performing the actual Pin.) I thought you could (heck, I even said that you could about 6 posts ago...), but I just realized that its not 100% clear (to me at least).

So, the only way you can deal damage to an opponent you are Pinning is to either "Damage Your Opponent" or "Use Opponents Weapon" (you may not use a weapon of your own).

1.) "Damage Your Opponent" is a special form of attack that is performed by a grapple check instead of a regular attack roll. Since sneak attacks demand that your opponent be unable to Dodge/Parry, and this form of normal defense isn't used at all here, I'm not sure if sneak attacks are applicable or not.

2.) "Use Opponents Weapon" is done with a normal attack roll (although you also have to succeed on a grapple check), so here defense is used as normal (your opponent will have a measly DV of 5 since he is Pinned by you). Only question is; can you perform a sneak attack with your opponents weapon?

So how would you rule in these two cases? Sneak attack allowed or not?
 
Trodax said:
OK, I have another question to further confuse this thread...

Can you sneak attack an opponent that you are Pinning? (People outside of the grapple can do it for sure, but I'm talking about the guy performing the actual Pin.) I thought you could (heck, I even said that you could about 6 posts ago...), but I just realized that its not 100% clear (to me at least).

It seems that, at that point, yes, you can. See, when you are just holding him in a grapple, he retains a Dodge bonus against you, but no one outside the grapple. It seems backwards (like he should be able to Parry you and not Dodge you - you've got him in a head-lock for cryin' out loud!) Once you establish a Pin, he loses his Dodge bonus (can no longer do either againsdt anyone) and so you can sneak attack him on your own.

Trodax said:
So, the only way you can deal damage to an opponent you are Pinning is to either "Damage Your Opponent" or "Use Opponents Weapon" (you may not use a weapon of your own).

You are DV 1 against apponents outside the grapple and DV 5 versus the grappler(s) that has you Pinned. Nothing says that you are still grappled and suffer allthe other consequences, but that seems obvious. So, yes, those are your attack options with the addition of "Attack your opponent" (option numbers 2, 4 and 11). However, you can only make unarmed, natural weapon or light weapon attacks in this way, so no slitting anyone's throat with that cutlas or broad sword...it's impossible.

Your buddies that arent'grappling him can do it, no problem.

See....screwey.

Trodax said:
1.) "Damage Your Opponent" is a special form of attack that is performed by a grapple check instead of a regular attack roll. Since sneak attacks demand that your opponent be unable to Dodge/Parry, and this form of normal defense isn't used at all here, I'm not sure if sneak attacks are applicable or not.

2.) "Use Opponents Weapon" is done with a normal attack roll (although you also have to succeed on a grapple check), so here defense is used as normal (your opponent will have a measly DV of 5 since he is Pinned by you). Only question is; can you perform a sneak attack with your opponents weapon?

So how would you rule in these two cases? Sneak attack allowed or not?

In the first case, Damage Opponent is more like crushing his windpipe or something. I dont'know what you'd be doing really...squeezing his head hoping his eyeballs pop out. Who knows. Whatever you're doing, it hurts.

Using his Weapon is pretty straigh t forward, and so is Attack him (the one you forgot about).

Look on page 177 AE. Sneak attack says that it includes victims who are blinded, flat-footed, stunned, helpless, the victim of a successful feint, pinned or being attacked by an invisible opponent.

So...yeah.

You can sneak attack your Pinned opponent.
 
Sutek said:
Once you establish a Pin, he loses his Dodge bonus (can no longer do either againsdt anyone) and so you can sneak attack him on your own.
Yeah, exactly, since he loses his Dodge bonus (and can now neither Dodge nor Parry), I assumed that you can sneak attack him. What got me confused was the limited and rather unusual forms of attack that are available to you when pinning someone (see below for more confusion on this...).

Sutek said:
So, yes, those are your attack options with the addition of "Attack your opponent" (option numbers 2, 4 and 11).
Hmmm... My understanding of the text under the heading If You're Pinning an Opponent, was that you can't use "Attack Your Opponent" against a pinned opponent. The description says you can damage him with a grapple check or use his weapon against him (referring to options number 4 and 11), but that you can't use your own weapon against him (which I assumed meant that you could not perform option number 2).
But...the description of "Attack Your Opponent" does say that you may do it with an unarmed strike, and this is something that isn't explicitly disallowed against a pinned opponent. OK, now I'm even more confused. :roll:

So, can you or can you not use the option "Attack Your Opponent" (it would have to be an unarmed attack in that case) against someone you are pinning???

If you can in fact use "Attack Your Opponent" (albeit unarmed) against a pinned opponent, then I would say that yes, you can most definitely sneak attack with it. It's a normal attack roll against an opponent who can't Dodge or Parry, so that would be a clear-cut case of sneak attacking.

(I still think that my first reading of the rules was correct, and that the option to "Attack Your Opponent" isn't available against an opponent you are pinning. Ain't sure though.)

Sutek said:
In the first case, Damage Opponent is more like crushing his windpipe or something. I dont'know what you'd be doing really...squeezing his head hoping his eyeballs pop out. Who knows. Whatever you're doing, it hurts.
Yeah, sure, its a damage-dealing form of attack, no question about that. Whats confusing for me is the manner in which you determine the attack (you make a grapple check instead of a normal attack roll). This means that Dodge/Parry, which determines if you can sneak attack or not, isn't used at all (your opponent uses a Grapple defense instead).
I wouldn't for example allow things such as Power Attack or Combat Expertise to be used on this grapple check. Sneak attack, I don't know.

Sutek said:
Using his Weapon is pretty straight forward
Yeah, you're probably right about that. It is a normal attack roll, and could probably be sneak attacked.
Forcing your opponents dagger into his heart...yeah, that works for me! :twisted:

Sutek said:
Look on page 177 AE. Sneak attack says that it includes victims who are blinded, flat-footed, stunned, helpless, the victim of a successful feint, pinned or being attacked by an invisible opponent.
Yeah, but that could be referring to the case when someone else is pinning the opponent, couldn't it? (Although then maybe it should have said "grappled or pinned", because people outside the grapple can sneak attack in both cases.)
 
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