Quesion about grappling

[Philip_fry]

Hello,
not certain if this hasn´t been discussed before, but a search for "grapple" revealed quite a few hits.

In the AE p. 174 under "grappling consequences" it´s written that you´re only able to defend yourself against melee or ranged attack with dodge defence while in a grapple, It´s impossible to parry.

So far so good. two paragraphes further it´s written that you can only dodge opponents you´re grappling. This could be seen as a clarification of the general rule, but the only usuable weapons in a grapple are those of the light type, so there should be no ranged attacks from your grappling oppenent.

The question is, can you dodge attacks of opponent you´re not grappling or not?

I would say yes.

 

[csteinhoff]

My read of the rules is you can only dodge opponents in the grapple. Any one not in the grapple can not be dodged. As for parrying you can never parry an opponent. If you look on page 156 there is a defense modifier chart that gshows the modifiers to defense for different defender states, it states that the defender can neither dodge or parry. It also states that ranged fire into a grapple can hit either opponent.

In short while in a grapple you can dodge your opponentin the grapple but no one else. At least that is my take on it.

 

[Sutek]

I just wrote a massive essay on this and it got eaten by my dial-up connection.

grrr...

Anyway, the gist was this: There's nothing in there that governs others outside the grapple attacking people engaged in the grapple. That's a huge flaw.

Best I can say is that I'd count them both as providing Soft Cover to each other (or however many are involved in the grapple) and any misses hit an unitended target (randomize if more than two grapplers are involved).

IIRC, in D&D 3.5, there are rules for attacking a target with cover, missing by a certain ammoutn, and then hitting and damageing the cover. I can't confirm this right now though.

But, yes. You can Dodge the other grapplers, and Parry no one. You cannot Dodge attacks from outside the Grapple either. Grapple, Pin (making the poor guy a Helpless Opponent) and then have one of you buddies attack of coup des grace even. Much easier to kill than Massive Damage in some cases.

 

[Trodax]

My read of the rules is you can only dodge opponents in the grapple. Any one not in the grapple can not be dodged. As for parrying you can never parry an opponent.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is correct. This is also analogous to how it works in D&D; you may add your Dex-bonus to AC against opponents in the grapple, but not against opponents outside of the grapple.

 

[Sutek]

Problem is that it doesn't make a lot of sense realistically.

Anyone have a house rule for this other than the "soft cover" thing?

It just seems to me like if you've got a couple of people wrestling around with each other it'd be tougher to hit the one guy you wanted to, but instead it's easier. I could see it becomeing easier once one of them is Pinned, and the rules sort of reflect that, but by then it's really easy to hit them.

I don't know...I think the held member of the grapple ought to be able to Dodge against his fellow grappler, but Parry against other foes attacking into the grapple. Heck, he can use his opponent's own weapon against him, why can't he Parry to some degree?

So far this is the only flawed rule I've come accross, but you're right: It's a direct port from D&D 3.5 OGL.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

The way I have handled it in the past is to say that all targets in a Grapple are considered Flat Footed by those not in the Grapple. Now seeing some of your ideas I'd add the soft cover bonus for missle fire, but not melee attacks. After all the idea of your friend grabbing an opponent from behind and your stabbing them repeatedly is an old classic.

Although is hasn't come up yet I'd likely allow those caught in a grapple to be able to use the Benefits of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge to repreesent the cinematic ability of experienced heroes [or villians] to manipulate a grapple to their benefit. 8)

 

[Sutek]

I dont' know about that. Uncanny dodge is still only allowing a Dodge Defence if flat footed (which mean that the character must (A) move and (B) dodge, so you're really overriding two consequences of the Grapple) and Improved UD simply negates the chance of flanking the character, which won't help at all if you're already Grappled.

I typically try to, at first, not completely disect the grammar of the rules, assuming that they operate on face value. However, this might require it.

A) Each of the Grappling Consequences relates to what you can or cannot do "while Grappling" an opponent.

B) the next sub-section, If You Are Grappling gives options "regardless of who started the grapple". This would seem to indicate that those, and only those things there, apply to both or either member (or everyone if there's more than two) involved in the Grapple.

C) This would mean that considering "A" is reference to only the attacker and initiator of the grapple, that the target of the grapple can still Dodge, Parry, Move adn still maintains threatened squares. After all, it's the attacker trying to maintain the grapple that's really "preventing" him from doing all of those things. That's why "Move" is overruled later; because it can applly to the target or initiator.

D) The ultimate goal of a grapple then is to Pin the target. Then things get immesurably worse for you since in the round(s) previous you could still act while the initiator could not, focusing all his attention on maintaining the grapple and/or working towards a successful Pin.

Seem sound?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

So what you are saying is that there there are two states in a Grapple. Grappled- which means that someone is clinging to you but you are still capable of limited actions and Pinned- which means that you are incapable of any action save dealing with the Grapple. By the rules it seems the one who initates the Grapple starts as Pinned by the limitations placed on them, but the target is merely Grappled. Is this a accurate summary?

 

[argo]

When two (or more) characters are engaged in a grapple they all are considered "grappling" and suffer the consequences of grappling, regardless of who started the grapple. That means that everybody in the grapple looses his Dex bonus with regards to people not in the grapple, does not threaten squares and cannot move (without succeding on a graple check first).

Imposing those restrictions on the guy you are grappling is really the entire reason for starting the grapple in the first place.

If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.

A pinned character sufferes the penalties of being pinned, the pinning character is only grappled (not pinned).

Characters who are grappling keep their Dex bonus with regards to each other.

Uncanny dodge does not help you out in a grapple because uncanny dodge only protects you against loosing your dex bonus when flat-footed or facing an invisible attacker. Please not that flat-footed is not the same thing as simply loosing your dex bonus. Flat-footed is a special condition that only applies at the start of combat, before you take your first action, and results in you loosing your dex bonus, not the other way around. Being grappled, climbing and balancing (without having 5 or more ranks in balance) are all examples of situations where you loose your dex bonus to DV and uncanny dodge does not help.

There is no chance of accidentally targeting the wrong grappler with a melee attack. As Raven said, this is how you set up the old "I'll hold him you hit him" move. And since grapplers loose their dex bonus against people not involved in the grapple, if the soldier grapples someone and has his theif buddy come over ..... :twisted:

It used to be that a ranged attack against a grappler had a random chance of targeting a different grappler instead, but I think that was changed going from 3.0 to 3.5 I'll have to look it up. :?

In response to the OP, I dont' have the AE yet, it seems that being limited to dodge DV while grappling is an AE revision. From what you posted it would seem that the rule is limiting a character to dodge DV against both grappling opponents and non-grappling opponents. Of course the Human Shield manuver would seem to invalidate that. Hard for me to say without the book handy.

Hope that helps.

 

[Trodax]

I totally agree with argo on how the grapple rules work. Spot on.

It used to be that a ranged attack against a grappler had a random chance of targeting a different grappler instead, but I think that was changed going from 3.0 to 3.5 I'll have to look it up. :?

No, I think this is still the case. The table "Defence Modifiers" on page 156 of the AE (or page 151 in D&D3.5) says so at least.

From what you posted it would seem that the rule is limiting a character to dodge DV against both grappling opponents and non-grappling opponents.

In the AE, you may Dodge opponents you are grappling, but not opponents who are not in the grapple. You may Parry neither.

Of course the Human Shield manuver would seem to invalidate that.

Don't know if this is new, but in the AE the description of Human Shield has a line that says "This is an exception to the normal rule that you may not parry while in a grapple". The rules for Grapple also mention this exception.

 

[Foxworthy]

But, yes. You can Dodge the other grapplers, and Parry no one. You cannot Dodge attacks from outside the Grapple either. Grapple, Pin (making the poor guy a Helpless Opponent) and then have one of you buddies attack of coup des grace even. Much easier to kill than Massive Damage in some cases.

emphasis mine.

Pinning doesn't make a defender helpless. He has a defence value of 1, but is not considered helpless according to the rules in AE. Which also means that he can't be coup de graced.

 

[Sutek]

Yeah, my bad, Foxworthy. It only makes the Pinned target immobilized. Thanks.

When two (or more) characters are engaged in a grapple they all are considered "grappling" and suffer the consequences of grappling, regardless of who started the grapple.

That's not necessarily the case, argo.There are certain things that are clearly stated as being available for any person involved in a grapple. Those are all listed under If you are grappling. The other four Grappling Consequences aren't as clearly defined.

Imposing those restrictions on the guy you are grappling is really the entire reason for starting the grapple in the first place.

I wonder if it is. If the reason to grapple in the first place is to work your way into Pinning your selected target (and, yes Raven, there are two distinct instances of a grapple - the basic grapple and Pinned; a stronger hold that immobilizes the target).

If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.

Is that a S&P rule? It's not in the AE book.

A pinned character sufferes the penalties of being pinned, the pinning character is only grappled (not pinned).

See, I disagree. The Pinned characer is definitely Pinned, but the Pinning character isn't "Grappled"; he is "Grappling". There's a fine distinction, but I think that's where the four consequences have effect, not to the grappled foe. They are limited in what they can do to retaliate (If You Are Grappling options), but the four consequences son't apply to them.

Uncanny dodge does not help you out in a grapple because uncanny dodge only protects you against loosing your dex bonus when flat-footed or facing an invisible attacker.

Yeah, Raven was suggesting that feat be used as a mitigating factor though and counting grappling individuals as being Flat-footed. It still doesn't work though because one of then would (A) have to be able to Dodge by the description of the feat. The grappler can m ove and the grappled target can only move if he brings his grappling oponent with him.

There is no chance of accidentally targeting the wrong grappler with a melee attack. As Raven said, this is how you set up the old "I'll hold him you hit him" move. And since grapplers loose their dex bonus against people not involved in the grapple, if the soldier grapples someone and has his theif buddy come over ..... :twisted:

Then they grapple one another and stand there waiting ot be stabbed? That makes no sense at all. A grapple can be the "arm around the neck" move wher eyou hold the guy so a buddy can jab him full of holes, but it can also be rolling around on the ground wrestling. Heck, they don't even have to be rolling around on the ground - a grapple is very active and since both combatants occupy a single square wile doing it, it makes for complicated combat issues. Arrows nearly automatically hit, and it's even easier if the grappled individual gets no Dodge or Parry bonus. Flat DEX +10 (+4 for being in close combat) is easy....from a distance?!?! :shock:

That can't be right.

It used to be that a ranged attack against a grappler had a random chance of targeting a different grappler instead, but I think that was changed going from 3.0 to 3.5 I'll have to look it up.

It falls under cover. There's also a randomization in melee too, but I'll double check to make sure I'm not totally losing my marbles.

In response to the OP, I dont' have the AE yet, it seems that being limited to dodge DV while grappling is an AE revision. From what you posted it would seem that the rule is limiting a character to dodge DV against both grappling opponents and non-grappling opponents. Of course the Human Shield manuver would seem to invalidate that. Hard for me to say without the book handy.

In AE it's changes to the following:

• No threatened squares.
• No Dodge bonus.
• No Parry bonus
• No movement.

Because the "If you are grappling" section of rules comes after the more specific "Grappling Consequences", implying that the caveat given in IYAG, that all those things apply regardless of who started the grapple, is not the case for the "consequences".

No, I think this is still the case. The table "Defence Modifiers" on page 156 of the AE (or page 151 in D&D3.5) says so at least.

Hmmm...yeah, that seems to support the concensus. I don't like it, but it does. Seems like the way to beat anything is to get it in a grapple and have a buddy. Forget Massive Damage.... :roll:

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Okay, to throw further fuel to the fire- what about Sneak Attack? Since Grappling characters are, if I read the above posts correctly, denied his Dex bonus that makes them all persons in a Grapple capable of being the target of a Sneak Attack while even without having to be Pinned, yes? So that means you better trust the guy who's coming to stab the guy you are Grappling because he might have two knives. After all it'd be one way to increase his share of the loot, eh? 8)

As for Pinning versus Grappled my guess is that Grappled character is still struggling and thus still somewhat difficult to control while a Pinned character is held so he or she almost unable to move at all. Sounds about as close to a Helpless Target to me.

 

[Foxworthy]

Yeah, it would be a good case for a helpless target, but it specifically says the pinned person isn't helpless. I imagine this is because even when you are pinned youa re able to try to fight your way out of it. When your helpless you have no chance of defending yourself.

 

[Sutek]

Since Grappling characters are, if I read the above posts correctly, denied his Dex bonus...

No. That is not the case. They are denied Parry, and they can only Dodge people that they are grappling with. (pg174 AE)

They still get DEX bonus, but only the target of the grapple can be sneak attacked from outside the Grapple. Thing is, since you can still DOdge the grapple opponent(s), they can't sneak attack you. When Pinned, you get no Dodge or Parry (redundant? see note below) and so, can indeed be sneak attacked still, but now your grappler can do it as well. (pg 175, 177)

As for Pinning versus Grappled my guess is that Grappled character is still struggling and thus still somewhat difficult to control while a Pinned character is held so he or she almost unable to move at all. Sounds about as close to a Helpless Target to me.

First off, Pinning is still grappling. It's acontinuation of the grapple, just with more dire consequences. Except that it is not indicated that the target is helpless*. Rather the target is immobilized** and then only for 1 round.

*Helpless defenders (pg171 AE) may not Dodge or Parry, DEX 0(-5), suffers additional -4 to DV, but only to melee attacks (not ranged). Latly, helples opponents are subject to coup de grace attempts.
**Immobile itself is not listed as a damage result or state in the rules, except where it is mentioned in the rules for being Pinned. It implies that being Immobilized results in the following: Cannot Dodge or Parry (which seems redundant if the individual could not do so while merely Grappled), DEX is reduced to DEX 0 (-5), take a -4 Defense against opponents other than the one Pinning you. At your opponent's option, you may be deemed unable to speak as well. You can escape the Pin by making either a Grapple or Escape Artist check vs the opponents Grapple Defense. Winning this escape attempt means you are free of the Pin, but still Grappling.

 

[Philip_fry]

Well, after re-reading the rules and following this thread I have to agree that the grappling rules should be interpreted as followed:

1. While grappling you can´t dodge or parry any outside attacks, regardless if you´re the one who started the grapple or beeing the one grappled.

2. Human Shield is one exception for the above mentioned rule.

3. Grappling combatants attacked with ranged weapons count as having soft cover as stated in the defense modifier charts.

4. While in a grapple you can dodge attacks from your grappling/grappled opponent, but you can´t parry any of his attacks.

5. There´s no real difference if you are the one who is grappled or beeing grappled.

regards
Marcel

 

[argo]

I totally agree with argo on how the grapple rules work. Spot on.

It used to be that a ranged attack against a grappler had a random chance of targeting a different grappler instead, but I think that was changed going from 3.0 to 3.5 I'll have to look it up. :?

No, I think this is still the case. The table "Defence Modifiers" on page 156 of the AE (or page 151 in D&D3.5) says so at least.

You are correct sir! I remember now, though that rule really is hidden in an obscure place now isn't it? :lol:

 

[argo]

When two (or more) characters are engaged in a grapple they all are considered "grappling" and suffer the consequences of grappling, regardless of who started the grapple.

That's not necessarily the case, argo.There are certain things that are clearly stated as being available for any person involved in a grapple. Those are all listed under If you are grappling. The other four Grappling Consequences aren't as clearly defined.

But it is clearly defined. There is no distinction in the rules between "grappler" and "grapplee". You are either engaged in a grapple or you aren't. If you are engaged in a grapple you take all the "consequences of grappling".

Imposing those restrictions on the guy you are grappling is really the entire reason for starting the grapple in the first place.

I wonder if it is. If the reason to grapple in the first place is to work your way into Pinning your selected target (and, yes Raven, there are two distinct instances of a grapple - the basic grapple and Pinned; a stronger hold that immobilizes the target).

Well I'm going to disagree with you here. The primary function of grappling is to force the other guy to stop whatever he is doing and focus on grappling you, the secondary function is to make him vulneurable to your buddies attack's. Either way its about imposing the grappling penalties on him (espically the loose dex bonus and can't move penalties).

If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.

Is that a S&P rule? It's not in the AE book.

Actually its a rule for monsters, you'll find it under the description of the Improved Grab ability. As such you can make the argument that anyone without the Improved Grab ability can't do this. But most GM's I know would allow a character to do this. Mostly because if your PC can take a -20 penalty to his grapple check and still win it probably means he is a dozen or so levels above whomever he is grappling and therefore ought to be permited to make the other guy wear a pink dress and sing the "I'm a Little Teapot" song if he wants. :wink:

There is no chance of accidentally targeting the wrong grappler with a melee attack. As Raven said, this is how you set up the old "I'll hold him you hit him" move. And since grapplers loose their dex bonus against people not involved in the grapple, if the soldier grapples someone and has his theif buddy come over ..... :twisted:

Then they grapple one another and stand there waiting ot be stabbed? That makes no sense at all. A grapple can be the "arm around the neck" move wher eyou hold the guy so a buddy can jab him full of holes, but it can also be rolling around on the ground wrestling.

*shrug* yeah, and in other cases it makes perfect sense. Like if the "grapple" is you holding the guy in a full-nelson, in that case your friend should be able to hit him in melee without risking hitting you. It is just one of those places where they simplified the d20 rules for ease of play.

It used to be that a ranged attack against a grappler had a random chance of targeting a different grappler instead, but I think that was changed going from 3.0 to 3.5 I'll have to look it up.

It falls under cover. There's also a randomization in melee too, but I'll double check to make sure I'm not totally losing my marbles.

No, as Trodax correctly pointed out to us there is no chance of targeting the wrong person in melee but a random chance of targeting any grappler with a ranged attack. The rules for cover wouldn't apply because all the grapplers are sharing the same space (for cover to apply it has to be between your space and the attacker's space). Again this is an arbitrary rule designed for ease of play.

Hmmm...yeah, that seems to support the concensus. I don't like it, but it does. Seems like the way to beat anything is to get it in a grapple and have a buddy. Forget Massive Damage.... :roll:

Yeah, grappling is mega powerful. On the downside though grappling is:
-hard to do unless you are considerably higher level and/or have specalized in it
-risky if the target has any (thief) friends nearby as you are subject to all the same penalties he is
-takes you out of the fight with respect to other enemies, grappling is a poor tactic when your party is outnumbered
-flat out useless against anything larger than you and/or non-humanoid

Hope that helps.

 

[Trodax]

If you choose you may take a -20 penalty to your grapple check to be grappling with just a single limb, in that case you keep your dex bonus, threaten squares, etc. as normal unless you are pinned.

Is that a S&P rule? It's not in the AE book.

Actually its a rule for monsters, you'll find it under the description of the Improved Grab ability.

Actually, in Conan (AE at least), this option doesn't exist. Creatures with the Improved Grab ability always count as non-grappling (so they can still Dodge/Parry, move and they threaten squares). This can be found under the description of the Improved Grab ability in the beginning of the Bestiary chapter.

Those big apes are DEADLY in Conan! :twisted:

 

[Trodax]

Well, after re-reading the rules and following this thread I have to agree that the grappling rules should be interpreted as followed:

Philip_fry, I very much agree with your summary of the rules. I'll go through them and add some coments.

1. While grappling you can´t dodge or parry any outside attacks, regardless if you´re the one who started the grapple or beeing the one grappled.

Yes! This also means that you can be sneak attacked by anyone outside of the grapple.

2. Human Shield is one exception for the above mentioned rule.

Yes!

3. Grappling combatants attacked with ranged weapons count as having soft cover as stated in the defense modifier charts.

No, you don't get cover from being in a grapple (cover would give you a bonus (+4?) to your defense). Instead all ranged attacks have to randomize (50-50 chance if there are two grapplers) who gets hit if fired into a grapple. This is stated under footnote #3 in the Defence Modifier chart.

4. While in a grapple you can dodge attacks from your grappling/grappled opponent, but you can´t parry any of his attacks.

Yes! This also means that you cannot be sneak attacked by your grappling opponent. The only way to sneak attack someone you are grappling is to also successfully Pin him, and then attack.

5. There´s no real difference if you are the one who is grappled or being grappled.

Yes! This is very important, and seems to be the main reason for disagreement in this thread.

Sutek, even though it doesn't explicitly state "these conditions apply to anyone in a grapple, regardless of who started the grapple" under the heading Grappling Consequences, I'm very certain that it is so. Can't figure out how to convince you of that though... :?