Precise Attacks in Legend?

[DamonJynx]

Has anyone considered using Precise attacks -40 to give an auto cm?

Example: I'm using a Mace and I want to hit someone in the head and "Stun" location, rather than kill my opponent. Under Legend RAW, assuming my regular attack is a success, I have to either a) roll a 20 for the head or b) use the choose location maneuver which means if I don't critical or my foe fumbles I can't use the Stun Location CM. What I'm proposing is using a Precise attack at -40 in lieu of the Choose Location CM, which means that if I manage to gain a CM I can use the Stun Location CM and possibly render my foe unconscious.

Any thoughts? Is there are anyone out there that has other house rules to accomplish this?

 

[Matt_H]

This was one of the first things I debated when I came back to gaming recently, but using half your current skill + modifiers rather than a fixed reduction in chance.
However I don't think it sits very well the the CM system, because as you show, you can apply whatever CM you want, where you want (assuming a hit) which could very quickly dominate the field of battle.
Why ever fight anything again when you can subdue and coupe de grace with ease, or apply more lethal CMs.
Isn't bludgeoning damage considered less lethal the slash/thrust anyway? so you just need to beat him in the head until unconscious and hopefully the target wont die.

Don't get me wrong, I LIKE the idea of a called shot, but it just dosn't work very well with the combat system as it stands, and allowing it for your perfectly reasonable subdue would allow other more game changing equivalents.

 

[Loz]

Your suggestion does, as Matt says, fundamentally break the combat system.

One of the reasons for introducing CMs was to remove the necessity for static penalties to achieve a desired result. For one thing, its wholly unrealistic. Static penalties like this penalise competency rather than reward it.

If I fail to generate a CM its either because I failed my attack roll anyway, or because you effectively defended. If you introduce a -40% modifier in lieu of a CM you're also reducing my chance to score not just a precise hit, but any hit and to critical.

 

[DamonJynx]

Thanks for your replies guys. I get what you're saying and how it could easily be abused.

I don't think it's unreasonable to allow for called shots, I just don't know how to implement them without 'breaking' the combat system. So is there any other method of allowing a 'called' shot?

What about using modified Hit Locations? 1D10+10 for upper body shots and 1D10 for lower body shots? This, at least, takes into account the fluidity of combat to a degree.

Or perhaps, something like 'aiming' where for each CA that you fight defensively studying your opponent for a 'weakness', you get a 10% bonus to your next attack?

 

[Lemnoc]

I don't think it's unreasonable to allow for called shots, I just don't know how to implement them without 'breaking' the combat system. So is there any other method of allowing a 'called' shot?

What about using the rules for striking a small target (Target Size, page 141). Take the penalty and, if you succeed, you hit the thing you're aiming at.

 

[Philotomy]

I don't think it's unreasonable to allow for called shots, I just don't know how to implement them without 'breaking' the combat system. So is there any other method of allowing a 'called' shot?

Allow the player to say "I'm swinging for his head." Then have him roll. If he rolls well and gets a success level better than his enemy's parry, his called shot succeeds and he can hit the head...

 

[Prime_Evil]

Doesn't the Choose Location combat maneuver already allow you to make called shots?

 

[Dan True]

Doesn't the Choose Location combat maneuver already allow you to make called shots?

Yep, if you succeed and choose location: Head it simply means retroactively that you were aiming for his head. If you don't get a CM then you didn't attack well enough / he didn't defend well enough, so even if you had gone for his head you would have failed.
So, I don't really see what further is needed to emulate?

- Dan

 

[DamonJynx]

I understand about the CM - Choose Location.

The penalty for striking at a small object is around -30% which is essentially the same thing as what I originally proposed.

The problem is, under normal circumstances if I want to use the Choose and Stun Location CM's I need to either roll a critical vs. a fail, or a succes vs. my opponents fumble.

Say I'm a thief and I'm sneaking up behind a guard, I don't want to kill him, just render him unconscious so I can steal what I came for. I'm not a cold blooded killer, I prefer not to kill, but will when necessary. So long as I win the opposed Stealth vs. Perception roll, I gain a 40% bonus to my attack. As he will be surprised he auto fails his defense so I'm guaranteed at least 1 CM, if my attack is successful but I need 2, Choose Location and Stun Location. If I don't score a critical I'm screwed unless I can a) roll the head as a location or b) do enough damage to force a Resilience check, which I pray he will fail.

To me there needs to be a mechanic to allow for this, one that doesn't require gaining 2 CM's.

 

[danskmacabre]

Choose location does not require a critical.
If you succeed and you opponent fails, you can choose location.
If you both succeed then he blocks anyway (unless his weapon is smaller, but either way he deflected the blow enough that you don't get a CM and the potential aimed shot didn't come off.

 

[DamonJynx]

Choose location does not require a critical.
If you succeed and you opponent fails, you can choose location.
If you both succeed then he blocks anyway (unless his weapon is smaller, but either way he deflected the blow enough that you don't get a CM and the potential aimed shot didn't come off.

I understand how combat works RAW.

What I'm trying to work out is how to hit an aimed for location without using the Choose Location CM. For example; to knock someone unconscious, as I've stated, requires a minimum of 2 CM's - Choose Location (head) and Stun Location. The only way to get 2 CM's is to either roll a critical vs your opponents fail (or Fumble which would grant the maximum of 3 CM's) or a normal success vs. your opponents fumble.

This is what I'm trying to avoid by having a 'called shot'. In my example above, the thief needs to roll either very well or the foe needs to roll really badly. There is no way under RAW to knock out an opponent using only 1 CM.

 

[Dan True]

Choose location does not require a critical.

No, but Choose Location AND Stun Location does, which is what he means.

I agree that the rules does not cover that situation very well Daemon - other than the GM ruling that the guard is helpless = automatic critical. Which is perhaps not that much of a stretch, as I believe I could do serious damage from behind against a person who didn't know I was there (as in, maximise damage, bypass armour etc.). So it seems appropriate.

- Dan

 

[DamonJynx]

Choose location does not require a critical.

No, but Choose Location AND Stun Location does, which is what he means. Precisely

I agree that the rules does not cover that situation very well Daemon - other than the GM ruling that the guard is helpless = automatic critical. This might be a possible solution on a failed Perception Test, rather than rolling a success but losing the opposed roll. Good one.Which is perhaps not that much of a stretch, as I believe I could do serious damage from behind against a person who didn't know I was there (as in, maximise damage, bypass armour etc.). So it seems appropriate.

- Dan

Thanks Dan, I think your solution is workable without being to over the top.

 

[danskmacabre]

I understand how combat works RAW.
....

Ah ok, I see what you mean about that.

Instead of having to invent something fancy and changing the core combat rules which IMO is risky, why not say something like:
If you can sneak up on someone (stealth vs Perception) and get total surprise, make either an opposed weapon attack or a brawn skill roll vs the Resistance score of the victim?
If you beat the opponent in this test, they are knocked out..

This sort of scenario is kind of outside of the combat rules, but then it's not really a normal combat either.


[edit] Posted this after Dan's post which is a good idea IMO.

 

[Loz]

Say I'm a thief and I'm sneaking up behind a guard, I don't want to kill him, just render him unconscious so I can steal what I came for. I'm not a cold blooded killer, I prefer not to kill, but will when necessary. So long as I win the opposed Stealth vs. Perception roll, I gain a 40% bonus to my attack. As he will be surprised he auto fails his defense so I'm guaranteed at least 1 CM, if my attack is successful but I need 2, Choose Location and Stun Location. If I don't score a critical I'm screwed unless I can a) roll the head as a location or b) do enough damage to force a Resilience check, which I pray he will fail.

In a situation like this, I wouldn't even shift into Combat Rounds. If your sneaky thief has successfully crept up on an unaware guard and stated that all he wants to do is knock the guy unconscious, I'd call for a roll against the combat style and, if successful, give the guard a Resilience roll to remain semi-conscious. No need to roll for locations. No need for additional penalties.

If you're trying to strike a specific location in the heat of a fight, and knock someone KO, then the RAW work perfectly well because you'll be acting against an opponent who'll be defending himself. Yes, you need to generate two CMs to do it, but, you're attempting to do two very specific things.

I think you're trying to over-engineer a solution to a situation that can be very neatly solved with just a little GM creativity.

 

[Faelan Niall]

Legend is a very gritty and some what realistic system. It is extremely difficult to lay someone out without inflicting real harm. If the hit does not do real damage the fall can. Regardless any head hit is a life threatening hit, even when you try to soften the hit with a sap, or something similar, the best you can really hope for is a concussion. The old hit the guy in the head with the pommel of my sword, or the pistol whip is more likely to cave his skull in than anything else.

 

[DamonJynx]

Thanks for the help guys.

I was trying to achieve my aim within the rules rather than just GM fiat, but as it has been pointed out, if it's not proper 'combat' then the 'combat' rules don't apply as such.

The feedback and suggestions are much appreciated.