Poster session for Empty Jump Hexes : possible solutions

captainjack23

Cosmic Mongoose
Hey all,

I'm setting up this thread to allow the various participants (and anyone else, actually) to summarise their ideas about the issues raised in the discussion thread, "Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts".

The initial discussion thread also somewhat defines the question in the first post. You don't have to have participated there, but please try to know, figure out, or have some vague idea of what the main question is.

Ground rules:
Pretty simple and hopefully non-muzzling.
  • 1. Post your solutions, and edit them as/if your ideas change (if you want);

    2. No comments about other postings (or Authors, either...) in this thread.

I've set up another thread for that express purpose:
Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants
Or one can post in the discussion thread.

Again, this thread is simply for posting the proposed solutions ! Not questions or responses !


Comments/response/arguments go in either "Empty Jump Hex Solutions: comments critiques and rants" or in "Jumping into empty hexes: some thoughts".

Please note, that I have absolutely NO way to enforce this, so it is a bit of an experiment in forum communication, and not ment to exclude, stifle or muzzle anyone or any discussion. Lets see how it works.
 
I think that jump drive technology would have allowed jumps into and
from empty hexes right from the beginning.

However, the calculation of safe jumps required the presence of some
known mass first at both ends of the jump, after some improvements of
the mathematics still at one end of the jump, and jumps without such
known masses finally became possible after another breakthrough in
"jumpspace topology" (or whatever this field may be called).

The history of jumps into and from empty hexes would therefore have
been one of daring trials and fatal errors, with some surprising early
successes and many more early disappearances of scout ships.

I think one could compare it to the early Age of Exploration, when ma-
ny ships searched for new lands and riches (in our case: useful masses,
like brown dwarves, in empty hexes), and most of them never returned.

This background history of the early attempts of jumps into and from
empty hexes could explain why the method itself still had a bad repu-
tation and would later be used only in emergency situations (like wars)
even after it had become comparatively safe.

Just some ideas ... :)
 
You've lost me - what are we trying to find a "solution" to exactly? We've established what canon says on the subject, and haven't established any reason why it doesn't work.

But... I'll play along. There are three possible options here for empty hex jumps:

1) mass-mass jumps. Astronomical scale masses are required at both ends for a jump. For the IW era and everything before the Aslan Border Wars, this is canon (see Imperium, Dark Nebula, and GT:IW). Whether this mass is a star, a brown dwarf, rogue planet, or large planetoid doesn't matter - but there has to be a mass there.

2) mass-empty jump. An astronomical-scale mass is required at one end of the jump only (usually the departure point). This is canon for everything after the beginning of the Aslan Border Wars, including the 3I setting (CT and MT), T4, TNE, T20, GT:3I, and MGT Spinward Marches.

3) empty-empty jump. Astronomical masses are not required at either end of the jump (so you can jump from deep space to deep space). This isn't explicitly defined anywhere, but is implied as being how jump works after the Aslan Border Wars.

The reason the Aslan Border Wars changed things is that we know that there is an exploration ship available in Dark Nebula that is capable of deep space jumps. Prior to that, Imperium (which despite erroneous claims otherwise is actually explicitly defined in the CT reprints as Traveller canon - thanks Randy) defines jumps as only being possible from star to star (which can be stretched to mean "mass to mass". But if you don't buy that, then the Terrans invent J2 before the 1st IW and use it to get to Barnard, and nothing else really changes).

So those are the known facts of the matter (canonically speaking)... now what's the problem that needs to be solved?

If (2) or (3) is true in the IW era, then ships do not need to jump from star to star and fleets can attack any system from deep space, or just hide there for a bit. We know that this did not happen during the IW era. If (3) is true then ships don't even need to stop off at planets, and calibration points and refuelling bases can be set up in interstellar space. If that was possible, then the IWs would have turned out very different. Which means that (1) must have been valid during the IW era.

On the other hand, if (1) is true during the IW era then we have all the necessary chokepoints required to force the fleets along the paths that they took in the Wars. The Terran's ability to leave the Sol system is explained either as J2 capability right from the start (J1 only allowed intrasystem jumps within the Solar System) - which changes nothing in practice really - or the discovery of a rogue planet in the empty hex between them and Barnard (which is what GT:IW states). The Vilani and other races would have had to discover similar rogue planets in empty hexes to be able to cross J2 gaps when they were expanding (or maybe tow asteroids out there, if that proves to be practical). This allows the various races to expand, and does not contradict canon.


If the "problem" is that (2) and (3) are allowed in products set after the IW era, then this is not a real problem. It just means that at some intermediate point (i.e. the Aslan Border Wars), it became possible to jump to or from empty hexes. Everything proceeds as described in the various texts, and the OTU does not suddenly fall apart as a result.

Does that adequately summarise things?
 
Here it is,
  • My Potential Grand Unification Theory.

Here are the main points it is built on:

Jumps involving empty hexes at either end require significantly harder calculations than star to star jumps. Before this is solved, empty hex jumps (EHJ) are impossible; afterwards they are possible * but risky and/or difficult. This difficulty likely cumulative when both hexes are empty.The result is that EHJ is effectively its own technology,

As with differing levels of jump theory, what works at one jump level doesn't apply to the next: it has to be learned all over. This applies to empty hex jump calculations. Essentially, at the beginning, EHJ is a new technogy, related to, but different from, star to star jumpsand is not neccessarily developed at the same time as star to star jumps. .

This is specifically designed to allow integration of most of the jump concepts in GTIW and Imperium with general traveller history.


That said, the simple version is this:

Empty jumps become possible for j1 at tech 10 & for J2 at tech 12; therafter, EHJ can continue to lag behing STS jumps, or not. It is fairly easy to posit that after discovering that the extensions to J1 theory failed to allow EHJ with J2 drives, the two were therafter developed in parallel. Or not -after the IW it's less of an issue.

The rules fix is simple.

  • For Mongoose Traveller:

    Add to the discussion of jump technology: J drives cannot jump to or from empty hexes until the tech level following its introduction. Initially, jump drives must operate between two stellar masses.

    This can be limited to the first two levels (J1 & J2) without messing up the scheme proposed.



    Add to the jump roll modifiers:
    A jump involving an empty hex is at -2 to the jump roll;
    for a jump between two empty hexes, it has a -4 (or more) penalty.


The canon fix is applied to GTIW, as is proper, and simply modifies the text that introduces the Mass limitations for jumpdrive.

All good !

Here's the timeline of what actually happened under this theory:

TL9

  • J1 is developed but only star to star jumps are possible.
    Vilaii expand down their main.
    Terrans may or may not use insystem jumping, but are still limited to sol system*.

TL10

  • The overall limit is still J1*, but now, empty jumps become possible , if difficult and or dangerous, using J1 drives.

    Vilanii pass through the empty hexes to scout and establish new risk-free j1 lines and find various other races. Civilian shipping may only seldom cross these points.

    Terrans jump to Barnard*, via an empty jump but need a logistic point.

    Terrans encounter vilanii and immediately adopt more efficient vilani jump designs; fuel problem diminished.

    Vilanii may also use logistic bases to cross similar situations.

TL11:

  • The initial version of J2 is introduced* capable of Star to Star travel only. Baseline situation for the IW period, both players now have it.

Tl12:

  • J2 ESJ Technology is invented by the terrans, but largely mooted by their development of J3.

    Vilanii Empire awarded second prize after Terran fleet jumps around choke points and crushes Vilani fleets and captures inner worlds, largely by surprise.

Observations

Well, how's that ? No forgotten maps, no overly woodenheaded Terrans or Vilanii (for that at least) who forgot that they could EHJ ; no abandoned asteroid Jump bases or stars and/or mega expensive bases that need to be forgotten in addition to being unused ater the initial need for EHJ is solved. Plus, logistic and/or calibration points can always be made - and may be a good idea with old vilani (or original terran) designs; They don't make jump possible, except as regards to having enough fuel.

As there are no artificial jump points or masses to go way, it's a lot easier to see why the logistic points aren't on maps -they are in fact like the filling stations on the old Highway. It allows the vilanii to do what they did, and makes the blind jump gambit far more unlikely -due to desperation not reaching Kamikazi levels.

And, as they are now just stations with beacons, one can easily still have the old abandoned fuel and logistic points out there as plot hooks.

And finally, EHJ development lag provides a nice (if trivial) solution toi the trivial question of why there is a two TL introduction for J1.

Some other issues potentially resolved:
Why the intermediate brown dwarf outside terra referenced in GTIW, and or the fueling points in DGPA&S ?
Logistics can prevent a jump as much as theory -when you're out of H, you're out of luck ;)
GTIW sets precontact terran drives as requiring twice normal consumption so carrying fuel for two EHJ1 jumps is a 40% penalty; likely a problem, especially if one wants fuel for a round trip when going into the unknown. Thus while in theory its possible to make the jump, it's probably undoable due to fuel constraints, not jump theory. But with a refuel at a well mapped and findable body in the empty Jump hex, it works.

And it's not mapped because ?
Because at present, it's not a stellar jump point, just another old crappy empty base, cold and with no resources. It may be there, or it may not, possibly it was have been destroyed when Terra was directly attacked, either by the Vilanii, or by the Terrans.

And the Vilani ones ?
Remember, the calibration points are for supplies, not to enable jump.
One can EHJ (or not) just as easily with a calibration or logistic station, or not, if you have the fuel of ability to post Jump recalibrate your drives in deep space. We assume that the mapped stars are the ones which would qualify foor STS travel.
If one assumes (as seems okay with most posters) that the empty jumps are more dangerous, most of the J1 filling stations fall into disuse once STS J2 was perfected : Civilian ships either jump past, or are still unwilling to take risks when they don't have to, even though the stations are there for supplies, maintainance and fuel: remember, when using MGT a -2 to the jump roll makes likely a 1/36 chance of a loss....that isn't good business even if one isn't averse to the risk.
Thus the J1 ships will continue chugging down the natural mains, and likely only rarely, if ever, take the risk of misjump to get to another J1 main. And see below about multiple EHJ effects.

So why didn't one of the combatants jump around the chokepoints in the Interstellar wars period ?
Ships could still jump to an empty hex via J1 drives , but they can't jump out at jump 2. Theyd have to make three jumps at minimum involving empty hexes at J1, and need to schlep the fuel along as well.
If one assumes (as seems okay with most posters) that the empty jumps are more dangerous, making repeated empty hex jumps can become close to suicide.
Terra MAY have had a fleet of last ditch raiders ready to make repeated J1 jumps across the gap, perhaps if Terra fell; but it was known that it would be a one way mission with massive losses (potentially >50% after a few jumps, with the ships needing massive maintainance at arrival); And they would functionally be unable to return. Like the last ditch one way nuke bombers of the early cold war, it was a possiblility , but a desperation , or a revenge-only option.

I'd also be okay with making empty empty jumps impossible or VASTLY more dangerous. There's a lot of canon room to play with the dice mods.

So, what about the standard traveller era (1105 for MGT) ? Can one do an EHJ6 at TL15 ?
This is left to the conscience of the individual GM - a strict application of the tech lag for EHJ would suggest that that only occurs at TL16. But, I would suggest that from TL12 and on, the deveopment for EHJ occurs in paralell, and is completed close enough to the introduction of the STS drive to be at the same TL and essentially simultaneous .


Have fun, and dig in !
 
I admit that I am less concerned with "how and why" than I am with "making a fun and interesting game". With that in mind, and without much in the way of background, I present a simple solution that I use:

Check DMs to Astrogation and Engineer (Jump Drive)
  • Empty to Empty: Formidable (-6)
  • G-well to Empty: Very Difficult (-4)
  • Empty to G-well: Difficult (-2)

The reason I use a higher negative DM on jumping TO an empty hex is because stands to reason the calculations are probably easier with a point of reference (gravity well). The Jump penalties represent the increased likelihood of a mis-jump (J-drives like having gravity wells at either end for some reason). Meta-reason is simply game play. Players are less likely to make such a jump unless they absolutely have to but also have a way out assuming they do make it. It also turns deep space into a type of Gaussian distribution; the further away from the "mean" (aka stellar space), the less likely you are to have people visiting. People tend to stay within a single jump of stellar space to avoid the -6+distance penalty for further jumps into space.

This makes deep space jumping both time consuming, dangerous, and not always reliable. A professional astrogator (Astrogation/2) without DMs from stats will have a ~17% to make the calculations correctly to jump into deep space from a g-well. The best human astrogator (+3 DM, Astrogation/4) has a ~42% chance. A jump from Deep to Deep? Nearly impossible for a professional astrogator (~2.7%). Only the best can do this, and even they have trouble: the very best human astrogator (+3 DM, Astrogation/4), has a ~58% chance of success on a DS to DS jump.

Naturally, that's at the default timing. I imagine that unless there's an emergency that the astrogator will take some extra time to improve the odds. Those same odds (and stipulations about taking extra time)

Now, once in deep space, jump back to stellar space is much easier, being only difficult (-2). I haven't run the odds for those yet, but I imagine they're much better.

Generally, unless there is a good reason otherwise, a ship's astrogator will take 1-6 hours to calculate (reducing check to difficult (-2)). If they can afford to (military surprise, for example), they'll take 6-24 days although at that point they loose some time benefit but retain the element of surprise.

1-6 Hours

  • G-well to Empty
    • Profession Astrogator: 41.67%
    • Astrogation Genius: 97.22%
  • Empty to G-well
    • Profession Astrogator: 72.22%
    • Astrogation Genius: 97.22% (snake eyes always fails)
  • Empty to Empty
    • Profession Astrogator: 16.67%
    • Astrogation Genius: 83.33%


6-24 Hours

  • G-well to Empty
    • Profession Astrogator: 72.22%
    • Astrogation Genius: 97.22%
  • Empty to G-well
    • Profession Astrogator: 91.67%
    • Astrogation Genius: 97.22%
  • Empty to Empty
    • Profession Astrogator: 41.67%
    • Astrogation Genius: 97.22%

Engineering takes less time, usually taking 10-60 minutes on their check (negating penalty = far less likely to misjump).

Astrogation still suffers a penalty based on the jump distance, so DSJs tend to be limited to the 1 to 3 jump range, primarily 1 jump.

As you can see, making a DSJ with a decent chance of success with your average professional navigator will likely take about a day on top of the week transit.
 
I like that solution, quite elegent.

I would add a further DM for TL (not sure how much though) of the drive. Higher TL J1 drives should be less likely to misjump in these situations (or in any situation actually, have to think about that one...).
 
Rikki Tikki Traveller said:
I would add a further DM for TL (not sure how much though) of the drive. Higher TL J1 drives should be less likely to misjump in these situations (or in any situation actually, have to think about that one...).

And I like that solution. Namely:

To jump to an empty hex: roll TL or less on 2D. Failure is a mishap, misjump, ship destruction, etc.
 
OOHH! ME LIKEY! :idea:

Simple, easy and explains how you COULD do it but probably WON'T do it (especially with a fleet). At TL 12+ it becomes a non-issue.

YOINK!

I just changed how I handle ESJs! :)

THANX!
 
As I understand this, empty hex jumps are thoroughly canonical. Dark Nebula has them and the Traveller Roleplaying Game has them from several sources and were written about and used extensively in the Mega Traveller era.

In none of those sources is a need for masses at either end of the jump mentioned. In fact requiring such masses contradicts the requirement that you cannot jump from or too a point close to a large mass, and this limitation is about as canonical as you can get. As a result requiring masses at either end of a jump is both contrary to most canon sources on this and is logically incoherent.

Simon Hibbs
 
simonh said:
As I understand this, empty hex jumps are thoroughly canonical.

This is my understanding as well. Apparently this causes problems with the way the Interstellar Wars played out, hence the problems, hence my proposed house-rule-worthy, trivially simple 'fix' for those settings.
 
I guess suggesting that comments be made on a comments thread just isn't practical. Not a snark, or sarcasm, just an observation. As I said, my original idea was an experiment; and negative results are part of that. So, carry on !
 
simonh said:
As I understand this, empty hex jumps are thoroughly canonical. Dark Nebula has them and the Traveller Roleplaying Game has them from several sources and were written about and used extensively in the Mega Traveller era.

In none of those sources is a need for masses at either end of the jump mentioned. In fact requiring such masses contradicts the requirement that you cannot jump from or too a point close to a large mass, and this limitation is about as canonical as you can get. As a result requiring masses at either end of a jump is both contrary to most canon sources on this and is logically incoherent.

Simon Hibbs

Are people continually missing the fact that the 'masses required' part is only applicable to pre-Aslan Border Wars eras?

I think the real problem is that some people can't seem to accept that canon can be added to. It doesn't matter if nobody had mentioned it in previous publications before - fact is, someone's mentioned it now, and it's there now and it doesn't change anything that came after that era.

It is entirely reasonable that the capacity to do something with a particular technology could be developed later on. It's happened plenty of times in the real world, why should the OTU be any different?
 
rje said:
simonh said:
As I understand this, empty hex jumps are thoroughly canonical.

This is my understanding as well. Apparently this causes problems with the way the Interstellar Wars played out, hence the problems, hence my proposed house-rule-worthy, trivially simple 'fix' for those settings.
(yes, I've given up on the other thread idea; proximity to the source of the comments does seem more important to the discussion than lack of crossed discussion)

I like it too. So.....After the first time a Terran EHJ from Sol never came back they probably got a LOT more fussy about how to do it. And it probably still failed. Given that practical experience is part of skills, (as per the definition of level 0 skills in MGT) there were no high level Navigators for a modifier. So they gave up, and looked for a dwarf. Once they had some experienced navigators as a cadre, it got easier and easier.
It was surviving the transition from Nav-0 to Nav 1 that was tricky....

The vilanii ? They put their best Navigators in Randomwalk class scouts (not for inducing intentional misjumps though), and took a chance on two EHJs (in/out)..... Just VERY risky Jumps. The extra fuel in the design makes it at least posible for them to return the skilled navigator and data after a simple displacement misjump....

They set up the major bases a bit at a time on the far side of the Barrier, over a long time and spread along the new mains from there. Detecting an advanced civilization on the other side of a barrier would probably be deemed worth the risk to set up a new base. Works.....

And once J2 arrived, the vilanii pretty much stopped needing to take the risks (conservative, not stupid), plus, they already had scout and exploration bases on the far side (and likely trade and colonial bureaux offices, too), now one jump away. ; and by the terran wars, it was still too risky when it mattered, and by the time it was worth the risk, it was too late.

Lets see. It makes fleet jumps risky ( with two J2 EHJs (in/out) to cross a J4 gap), possibly very risky....some spy ships may take the risk from the terran side -that is at least a non-game breaking non-forbidden assumption, but makes major fleet jumps a desperation move -and no-one quite got there -or may not have had it set up the few times it may have been.


The nice thing about this is that it is a mechanic that is essentially neutral on why the EHJ are riskier -maybe mass, maybe calculations, maybe space ghosts.....pick whatever you like, as it does seem to explain the behavior of the setting quite well.

Nicely Done !
 
EDG said:
[

Are you people continually missing the fact that the 'masses required' part is only applicable to pre-Aslan Border Wars eras?

Some of us aren't. Its the relating it to the behavior observed both before the ISW period (which was well before DN period, BTW) and later behavior. The behaviors being : going places you need EHJ of some kind that doesn't moot the later inability to do so.

I think the real problem is that some people can't seem to accept that canon can be added to. It doesn't matter if nobody had mentioned it in previous publications before - fact is, someone's mentioned it now, and it's there now and it doesn't change anything thing that came afterwards.

Getting into personal motivations is murkey at best and positively infllammatory at worst....as I've learned. Anddetermining why canon is what it is, really isn't what the goal of this exercise is. So, other than that piece of unasked for advice, I'll remain silent on this.

It is entirely reasonable that the capacity to do something with a particular technology could be developed later on.

Exactly. Most of these ideas about how to do it (not the ones that say it is uneccessary) focus on this exact issue. Mine is that J1 is improved at a higher tech level; others are that the way one uses it is improved (which, BTW, I'm starting to prefer to my theory).
 
captainjack23 said:
Getting into personal motivations is murkey at best and positively infllammatory at worst....as I've learned. Anddetermining why canon is what it is, really isn't what the goal of this exercise is. So, other than that piece of unasked for advice, I'll remain silent on this.

It's just that some peoples' arguments against this seem to be based on "it wasn't in canon before" and nothing else. Aside from the fact that it WAS actually in canon before (see Imperium and Dark Nebula), it's been made explicit now in GT:IW and unless anyone official (i.e. Loren, Jon, or Marc) says otherwise then GT:IW is also canon.

So let's just stop arguing about whether it really is or isn't canon, because we have already established (repeatedly) that it is.

If you want to suggest an alternate mechanism for that change from DSJs being impossible to DSJs being possible in the OTU then fair enough, but don't say that there never was such a change in the OTU.
 
EDG said:
Are people continually missing the fact that the 'masses required' part is only applicable to pre-Aslan Border Wars eras?

No. They (we?) are pointing out that it's not a logical follow-on to the nature of jump as described in the rest of the universe, and in fact is counter to the nature of the rest of canon.

As in, it probably wasn't thought out well in advance when the Imperium Boardgame was put together (according to the designer's notes) IN 1973!!! It evolved from the initial 1973 to 1977, to use the word in the designer's notes, gaining "polish." My 1977 edition does not say Traveller Game 1.

Then again, as every serious canonista knows, Canon has major phases and incompatibilities.
77-79 No cogent OTU 3I, small ship universe, rules drive setting.
80-84 semi-cogent imperium, large ships introduced. Setting coalesces.
84-87 defined Imperium, maps of the whole thing, big ship universe. Alien Modules released.
87-92 Shattered Imperium. Big ship universe, Jump Grids, revised alien modules.
93 - TNE era. Nothing much written about the Imperium, only it's remnants. Reset of Rules and setting. Medium Ship universe with big ships possible.

All the pre-80 stuff is vague about the imperium, and uses rules to evoke the setting. (1979 being the year of the 1st High Guard.) 1980's HG 2e clearly is talking about the OTU in less vague references.

Let's see:
1977 1st edition Traveller.
1981 2nd edition Traveller.

Supplement 1: 1978 (1001 Characters)
Supplement 2: 1979 (Animal Encouters)
Supplement 3: 1979 * (Spinward Marches)
Supplement 4: 1979 (Citizens of the Imperium)
Supplement 5: 1980 ** (Lightning Class Cruisers
Supplement 6: 1980 (76 Patrons)
Supplement 7: 1980 (Traders and Gunboats)

Adv 1: Kinunir 1979 ***
Adv 2: Research Station Gamma 1980
Adv 3: Tilight's Peak 1980 ****
Adv 4: Leviathan 1980 *****

* at least two different versions exist; the 1979 has suckier maps...
** included in AHL, not sold separately.
*** 1250 ton Battlecruiser. Clearly Small Ship universe. On the canon list in the Big Floppy Books. But is it the OTU? Are we sure?
**** The first appearance of the Droyne. Seriously starting to move towards a strong canon.
***** 1800 ton "Merchant Cruiser". Small ship universe? Maybe.

Almost all of the material pre 1981 is at odds with later, post HG materials.
Taking pre-HG stuff as canonical is dicey... it wasn't written for an "official universe".

Sure, Marc calls it all Canon. But does it all work? not together.


References:
http://www.travellerbibliography.org/ct.html
http://traveller.wikia.com/index.php?title=Category:Ludography
 
My solution for the DSJ/EHJ (and probably very close to canon as I understand it and can explain it).

Using TL9 computers (CT's Model 3/C) theoretical physicists and gravitic engineers tackle the mathematics of jump drive theory. They discover that the mathematics starts off the same but diverges into two seperate sets of equations, one using mass centered jumps and the other where mass is not required to jump. The mass centered jump equations are solved first and the jump drive can proceed to development. Towards the end of this TL the jump drive is produced. Some races produce "crude" drives at this time (the Solomani's 'fuel hog', the Hiver's 'burnout' drives) that are refined with new advanced TL A computers (CT's Model 4/D) to OTU's 'standard' performance. (Cheaters like the Aslan and Vilani that had access to relic technology usually started off with 'standard' drives.*)

If starfaring races encounter a parsec without a star present (an apparently empty hex) and wish to transverse the gap they undertake a long term (multiple decades at least usually) and/or intensive search for brown dwarfs and/or rogue planets in the parsec. Many such areas of 'empty' space have dwarfs or rogues present.

Using TL A/B computers (CT model's 4 and 5) the jump-2 drive is developed as TL advances to TL B.
Since less than (about) 5% of 'charted space' contains star systems that are more than two parsecs distant from another star system the need to search for dwarfs and rogues in 'empty' space drops to an extremely rare undertaking.

Using TL B/C computers (CT model 5 and 6) the jump-3 drive is developed as TL advances to TL C. Theoretical physicists and mathematicians using TL C computers are able to solve the hereto unsolvable mass-less jump equations, reducing them down so that even lower tech computers (Model 1's and 2's) can utilize them for lower tech jump-1 and jump-2 drives. This knowledge is taught from one navigator to another. This knowledge has survived from it's discovery during the Long Night and is still known in the 3rd Imperium.

Now to address the lack of notation on OTU maps of the 3rd Imperium of brown dwarfs and/or rogue planets in "empty" hexes. Such notations are not needed anymore (they did appear on old 'unpublished' First and Second Imperium maps) since the mass-less jump equations were solved and disseminated during the Aslan Border Wars. As a meta-game aspect the creators of Traveller didn't want to shoehorn individual referee's that certain hexes contained dwarf/rogue planets allowing them to choose where they are located.

*As understood by a loyal Solomani. :D
 
EDG said:
So let's just stop arguing about whether it really is or isn't canon, because we have already established (repeatedly) that it is.


Nope. That will just invite more argument.

Lets stop arguing here, because it is only vaguely relevent to the thread topic; it's an important issue and deserves not to be folded into this thread. My 2 CrImp.
 
AKAramis said:
EDG said:
Are people continually missing the fact that the 'masses required' part is only applicable to pre-Aslan Border Wars eras?

No. They (we?) are pointing out that it's not a logical follow-on to the nature of jump as described in the rest of the universe, and in fact is counter to the nature of the rest of canon.

How?

I see no contradiction at all. Imperium explicitly specifies mass to mass jumping (I note that Imperium was apparently re-released in 1990, did that change anything? I'm guessing the version with the CT CD is the 1977 version). Imperium is canon, it's listed as such by Marc himself.

The rest of canon doesn't conflict at all with this. So the Vilani and anyone else in the 1I needed to do mass to mass jumps to extend as far as they did - whoopteedoo. Does anything change? No. They just take the time and effort to find brown dwarfs or rogue planets where they need to cross and that's that. Problem solved.

And after that, it just doesn't matter. Everything from the Aslan Border Wars onwards can do DSJs. That's everything in T4, the Traveller Adventure/Book, CT, MT, TNE, T20, and anything else can still do empty hex jumps without masses after that era. Old canon is not contradicted at all.

"counter to the nature of the rest of canon" means nothing. What's important is whether it specifically renders something already in canon impossible, and it doesn't.
 
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