Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
You don't need one, that's why. Jump drives do not require a gravity well, the opposite in fact.
Jump capacity
- Thread starter Gavain
- Start date
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
There is, in GT:ISW, due to the nature of jump travel in Imperium and Dark Nebula.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I just ignore the stupid m-drive limitation.
Consider The Traveller Adventure - one scenario has a trade war involving ship combat in deep space
Beltstrike - mining asteroids boxed adventure
Both of these would need extensive re-writes to conform with the stupid m-drive change.
Consider The Traveller Adventure - one scenario has a trade war involving ship combat in deep space
Beltstrike - mining asteroids boxed adventure
Both of these would need extensive re-writes to conform with the stupid m-drive change.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
That was my understanding too.
The deep space drives from Deepnight are painfully underpowered. I actually found it easier/more efficient to create an onboard fuel collector/processor for a high technology (TL+3) reaction drive (Fuel Efficient x3= 1.35% per thrust/hr) to convert volatiles (including hydrogen) into reaction fuel. Originally a player tried solar sails, but ended up stranded when they jumped into an empty hex without a star (thus, no wind).
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
1. As long as you have the coordinates, you can jump anywhere within range; whether you get there, intact, is another matter.
2. Well, the manoeuvre drives are based on gravitationally linked technology; any way you look at it, you're getting nowhere fast.
3. Ramscoops come into their own, as do collectors.
4. Maybe there's another refined variant of manoeuvre drive, certified to ten kiloorbits.
2. Well, the manoeuvre drives are based on gravitationally linked technology; any way you look at it, you're getting nowhere fast.
3. Ramscoops come into their own, as do collectors.
4. Maybe there's another refined variant of manoeuvre drive, certified to ten kiloorbits.
Ah, right. A skill limitation, not a 'hard' limit. Presumably solved with better mathematical models since then.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
I did- this adds context (During the Interstellar Wars era,). I see it as an ability/skill/competence issue, not a jump physics issue.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Who claimed it was a jump physics impossibility? 
It's only a prohibition during a certain era of jump travel - and the jury is out as to if the Zhodani, the Vargr or the Hivers ever suffered from this.
It's a maths understanding issue not a jump physics issue - if you play Dark Nebula you get to find out exactly when the maths for jumps to anywhere were finally figured out - by Terrans and Aslan anyway
It's only a prohibition during a certain era of jump travel - and the jury is out as to if the Zhodani, the Vargr or the Hivers ever suffered from this.
It's a maths understanding issue not a jump physics issue - if you play Dark Nebula you get to find out exactly when the maths for jumps to anywhere were finally figured out - by Terrans and Aslan anyway
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
That was my point. An earlier post said that jump drives required a gravity well in order to work. I am unable to find any rule that supports such an assumption.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
It wasn't an issue until Interstellar Wars.
And they gave a reason (which is not always a given).
I tend to think that gravity wells act as lighthouses.
And they gave a reason (which is not always a given).
I tend to think that gravity wells act as lighthouses.
The jump prohibition is silly ret-conning, like a number of other ideas that have been sprinkled around in different supplements over the years from the various publishers. Traveller jump drives have never had the need to have a planetary-sized object or start to leave jump space. All the descriptions of how jump drive works are predicated upon the collapse of your jump field after a somewhat specific time period. If this were Cherryh's Merchanter universe, where FTL drive required a gravity "sump" when they returned to normal space, then sure, that might be a reason. Or if they were like 2300AD stutterwarp drives that required a body of sufficient size to get rid of built-up energy, again, that might be ok.
But that's not the case. The ISW rule is silly and none of the other materials make any sort of reference to it. Just like the M-drive now failing outside a stars heliosphere (stupid), or gravity sensors that can pick up objects in the oort cloud, even ice asteroids (more stupid).
When stupid is introduced for no good reason and flies in the face of logic, common sense and provides no useful purpose it is best to throw out stupid. Rules that may be silly but provide background for gaming (Star Wars has the force, Traveller has the force, err, psionics), they are generally baked in to the background, so like magic in D&D, they can stay and be useful.
But that's not the case. The ISW rule is silly and none of the other materials make any sort of reference to it. Just like the M-drive now failing outside a stars heliosphere (stupid), or gravity sensors that can pick up objects in the oort cloud, even ice asteroids (more stupid).
When stupid is introduced for no good reason and flies in the face of logic, common sense and provides no useful purpose it is best to throw out stupid. Rules that may be silly but provide background for gaming (Star Wars has the force, Traveller has the force, err, psionics), they are generally baked in to the background, so like magic in D&D, they can stay and be useful.
It was introduced so that Interstellar Wars specifically matched the source material wargames. The rule is NOT intended for any other application. I don't feel like matching the source material is "no good reason". Besides, the explanation is that the navigational capabilities of the time made jumps problematic, not the jump drives. So its not even a change of function.
ProfGrizzlyJon
Cosmic Mongoose
Thanks- that was my point. It was a lack of ability, not physics
For that matter, misjumps clearly show that jumps beyond 6 parsecs are possible, even if the 3I doesn't know how to generate or control them (yet).
And before anyone says that it will never be controllable, well, that's pretty much what people said about travelling at speeds above that of a galloping horse... until James Watt had his little cooking mishap.
And before anyone says that it will never be controllable, well, that's pretty much what people said about travelling at speeds above that of a galloping horse... until James Watt had his little cooking mishap.
Which specific source materials? Imperium was the first one for Traveller, published in 1977. It had no such prohibtions - though it and Dark Nebula rules only allow jumps along the jump lines on the maps. Both games also say you can move 1 hex per turn at sublight speeds (90% of speed of light). That's not in regular Traveller versions.
GURPS: Traveller makes no mention of this (like the previous iterations, or even the post versions). ISW is the first to make note of jump "levels", and each jump drive is capable of piercing a higher level as it's jump # goes up - though the book states only 3 levels exist. It also mentions Vilani ships use jump tapes rather than full computation of a jump each time, and according to ISW they can't explore. Which makes no sense because otherwise they could never leave their home system or expand. And yes, I'm aware you could have "special" scout ships, but again we see the introduction of something that is not mentioned anywhere else as a limitation (or even a good reasoning).
The actual rule in the ISW book is that it's based on math - and navigation is "much simpler" when there are large planetary masses or stars. It also states that these must be at both ends of the jumping - ships in deep space cannot make a jump to a system if there is no anchor point. The passage also states that Vilani know of jump masses (again, like Cherryh has in her Merchanter universe) for different jump paths, but rarely, if ever, use them. This kind of matches the idea of a tired empire, though this data would be of potential incalculable value to Terrans. ISW also states that ships can plot a STL course between stars (it states about 4yrs/parsec). Which is rather odd since a navigator can't make the calculations to jump to a planetary system, but can through normal space.
So yeah, I still say it's a retcon of the rules that offers nothing useful to the game and isn't mentioned in a lot of the other source materials.
Its a specific rule for a specific context. Why would you expect that it is discussed in other contexts? If you want to set your Traveller campaign during the eras covered by those boardgames and you want the games and the tabletop to play similarly, then you apply these rules. If you aren't, you don't.
Here's the blurb for that product: GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars is an official GURPS Fourth Edition sourcebook for the Traveller universe. It includes a detailed timeline, along with rules for tailoring characters to the last days of the First Imperium, starship design, interstellar trade, exploration, and ship-to-ship combat.
Tailoring to the last days of the First Imperium. That seems pretty clear cut to me. The only published material for that era for the author to draw on was the board games. And he came up with an explanation of why it worked like those board games then and doesn't work like that now.
It certainly offers nothing to any game set in the Third Imperium or later. But then it was never intended to, so I don't see how that's a problem.
Here's the blurb for that product: GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars is an official GURPS Fourth Edition sourcebook for the Traveller universe. It includes a detailed timeline, along with rules for tailoring characters to the last days of the First Imperium, starship design, interstellar trade, exploration, and ship-to-ship combat.
Tailoring to the last days of the First Imperium. That seems pretty clear cut to me. The only published material for that era for the author to draw on was the board games. And he came up with an explanation of why it worked like those board games then and doesn't work like that now.
It certainly offers nothing to any game set in the Third Imperium or later. But then it was never intended to, so I don't see how that's a problem.
