population of the Kai?

adgramaine

Mongoose
Has there ever been any mention as to a census among the Kai? Every region in the LW RPG book has pop. notes and whatnot, but I don't remember seeing any write-ups on the Kai Monastary at all. In fact, closest I can come is the Magnamund Companion. But even it has not pop. notes.

Yet again, I'm just curious... but it'd be nice to know if there was a "canon" answer to my quandary...
 
Okay...

mebbe I should clarify - what might the population be BEFORE the Massacre of the Kai?

Oh, Greg, thanks for the response :roll: (you smart-@$$)
:lol: don't take that personally - I only wish I were witty enough to be a smart-@$$!
 
The only clue to their number I ever heard of was from the Magnamund Companion, so it's probably already known to you. According to a friend, the Warriors of Sommerlund chapter defines a troop of 200 warriors as a "charge", and several charges combined (and commanded by a baron) as a "cassel". (Three to five cassels are considered an army.) Then it continues to say that the Kai lords (prior to their destruction) were considered to form a "cassel".

Not very precise, but closer than anything I have seen so far. Of course the question arises whether they were considered a "cassel" because of their actual number or maybe because of their prowess in combat ...


Hope that helps,

Paido
 
adgramaine said:
Okay...

mebbe I should clarify - what might the population be BEFORE the Massacre of the Kai?

Oh, Greg, thanks for the response :roll: (you smart-@$$)
:lol: don't take that personally - I only wish I were witty enough to be a smart-@$$!

Sorry. I just can't help myself. :oops:

Paido, so 'several'? Hmm, between 3-5 charges, or 600-1000. 750 maybe, or is that too high?
 
Not sure myself, but I'd guess the same - or maybe even fewer. (That "combat prowess" thought rears it's head again.)

Might be interesting to correlate that number with the whole population of Sommerlund, BTW ...


Paido
 
Summerlund, Pop. 325,000. Which is pretty small for a country the size of England.

If there are 600 Kai Lords, that means roughly 1 in 500 people are Kai. However only nobles join the ranks of the Kai Lords. If 10% (a guess) of the population are noble then roughly 1 in 50 nobles becomes a Kai.

I wonder why commoners do not or cannot become Kai Lords.
 
Greg Smith said:
I wonder why commoners do not or cannot become Kai Lords.
As far as I know, they can become Kai lords, it's just a rare occurence. (Compare August's comment here.) Maybe it's just a lot more difficult for commoners to take their children to the Kai monastery for testing? Travelling takes time and money, which many commoners are probably loath to spend on the off-hand chance that their son or daughter has the potential to be a Kai. ... And thereby risk to loose a valuable hand on their farm, in their shop or whatever. :?


BTW, looks like a rather high soldier-to-commoner ratio for Sommerlund! When I saw that each baron was supposed to have about 800 soldiers under his command, it seemed a bit exaggerated already ...


Paido


edit: Just found a post on the Project Aon forum that names the number of Kai lords as mentioned in the New Order book Rune War. (Of course that's not quite what Adgramaine was looking for, but at least somewhat comparable.) According to that book, there are 500 Kai Lords, 5 Grand Masters (your New Order character included), and one Supreme Master (whom we all know).
 
Greg Smith said:
I wonder why commoners do not or cannot become Kai Lords.
Probably a case of typical medieval elitism. Although idealized nobility I think, geneticaly fitter, born with a higher soul, bred to rule, etc. When you look at the art in the gamebooks, the commoners were often portrayed as very low profile...
 
In the northern land of Sommerlund, it has been the custom for many centuries to send the children of the Warrior Lords to the monastery of Kai. There they are taught the skills and disciplines of their noble fathers.

The Kai monks are masters of their art, and the children in their charge love and respect them in spite of the hardships of their training. For one day when they have finally learnt the secret skills of the Kai, they will return to their homes equipped in mind and body to defend themselves against the constant threat of war from the Darklords of the west.

The above is quoted from the Lone Wolf Gamebooks and I guess that is where folks are getting the nobility only idea from, but when I read that passage I read it that the nobility sent their children to the Kai to learn from the Monks because of their martial discipline rather than the noble children were there to become Kai Lords. Although it does make sense that the Kai Lords are somehow decendants of King Ulnar or other great Sommerlending who were blessed by the god Kai and in that case would have to be of noble blood...hmmm

It also just seemed a little unbelievable (and impractical) to me that ALL the Kai Lords were present for the massacre, because anyone who knew about the religious feast would also then know that every year on that day they have (at least) one entire day in which to do evil across the face of Sommerlund because the Kai Lords were off getting schnickered like some kind of randy, pipeweed smoking hobbits instead of doing their sacred duty and defending their homeland...

Also the Jedi comparison has also been made a few times, and to stick with that analogy: I highly doubt a Jedi would leave what they were doing just to attend a religious feast rather than fulfill their duty, can you imagine if all the Jedi just dropped everything at the same time and made their way to the Jedi Temple on Coruscant for a feast?

Wasn't there even a sick Kai that could not make the feast or perhaps one trapped in the wilds or unable to travel home? Or one that met a feisty young lass abroad and said 'I'd rather snuggle with you milady in the inkkeper's hayloft then go home to grandmaster Wise Ass and listen to the same drunken lecherous jokes about Vassagonian Pom Pom girls and spend the rest of the night drukenly hazing the newbies...?' C'mon! Not one? :twisted:

But as Paido says, thats my two lunes worth ;)

Arandur
 
Paido said:
Greg Smith said:
I wonder why commoners do not or cannot become Kai Lords.
BTW, looks like a rather high soldier-to-commoner ratio for Sommerlund! When I saw that each baron was supposed to have about 800 soldiers under his command, it seemed a bit exaggerated already ...

If you consider that Sommerlund is a feudal nation, then a large proportion of thes soldiers are probably not part of a permanent standing army, but instead vassals of the baron who owe military service in time of need.

If each baron has 15 lesser nobles under him (including his sons), and each of these has 10 retainers, that's 150 men there. Add in 200 professional soldiers, and 450 commoners (remember, all Sommlendings are armed and trained-- and in medieval society, this only occurs when commoners are expected to be capable soldiers at need [cf the English and the Longbow]), and you've got your 800.

As to the Kai all being present at the massacre ... perhaps this was merely a "fortunate" year, when every Kai managed to make it back.

What, with the Darklords preparing for major war? you ask.

The calm before the storm, anyone?

Ok, maybe I'm grasping at straws. But, remember, fact is stranger than fiction. :wink:
 
Thanks for the estimates, Paido - the cassel thought makes the Kai all the more impressive;for some reason I always imagined there might be as many as a few thousand scattered across the realms.

And though I own the Magnamund Companion, I haven't read it in a while, as it is starting to fall apart on me... well read book that it was :)

This poses a second question - have they ever made mention as to how many the Monastary can actually house at once? I doubt they'd have room for every Kai alive by any means, but hey, I could be wrong as I have very few illustrations to base a comment on....

Thanks for your imput for this one guys!
 
Arandur said:
Wasn't there even a sick Kai that could not make the feast or perhaps one trapped in the wilds or unable to travel home? Or one that met a feisty young lass abroad and said 'I'd rather snuggle with you milady in the inkkeper's hayloft then go home to grandmaster Wise Ass and listen to the same drunken lecherous jokes about Vassagonian Pom Pom girls and spend the rest of the night drukenly hazing the newbies...?' C'mon! Not one? :twisted:

But as Paido says, thats my two lunes worth ;)

Arandur

Of course there could be one who was at the feast but was sent out into the woods to collect firewood as a punishment. :)
 
This poses a second question - have they ever made mention as to how many the Monastary can actually house at once? I doubt they'd have room for every Kai alive by any means, but hey, I could be wrong as I have very few illustrations to base a comment on....


There is a good picture inside book 18. Obviously this was the second order and the monstary may have been expanded over the first. There was one huge looking tower which would be able to house a great many people I would think. Many of the defensive towers in the outer wall looked pretty substantial and would probably have housed Kai Lords as well. If I remember correctly there was a large stable too!

All of this is without any underground delvings I woul say there had to be at least an extensive set of cellars. In the second order there was Lone Wolf's underground training chamber and the secret tunnel leading to it from out side the monastry. I suspect that these are unique to the second order monastry however otherwise other Kai would probably have escaped the first massacre, and reflected Lone Wolfs enhancments based on the bitter lessons of the first order.

So I think the monastry could accomadate all of the Kai if it didn't the first order would have been so decimated.

P.S I really love the second order battles in the monastry towards the end of Dawn of the Dragons. :D
 
The numbers of a cassel may vary a lot. For instance, the Baron of Tyso has a cassel of 2400 men. That means 12 charges and an equal number of Knights of the Realm, since each one of them commands a charge. Anyway, the Barons supply troops only in war time. In peace time, the Sommlending regular army is composed of the Royal Guard and Border Rangers.
As for the number of Kai Lords, I agree they were about 800-1000.
 
With the constant threat of the Darklords just across the Durncrags it doesn't surprise me that the Sommlending are a highly militarised people.
 
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