PGMP, FGMP and Battledress

[alois8113]

Like in many other editions, Mongoose Traveller appears to posit the Imperial Marines as a Battledress-centered force (though with more troops in non-powered armour than in some other versions), using shock tactics and superior firepower to substitute for numbers. Unlike many other editions, Mongoose Traveller's PGMP and FGMP seem to produce damage effects that almost guarantee death to any person hit by them, regardless of protection. These versions of the weapons seem more in the realm of man-portable anti-tank weapons than standard infantry weapons, regardless of how capable that infantry is.

This is certainly a legitimate viewpoint on the weapons, especially given their lethality in Classic Traveller. It does present a few issues about how military forces, particularly the Imperial Marines, deploy these kings of energy weapons.

Given the vast overkill that these guns represent, is it likely that high-TL Battledress units carry them as individual weapons, or relegate them to a squad-support role? I can think of arguments both ways, and was curious if anyone else had opinions they would like to share.

 

[CosmicGamer]

As protection is developed, so are weapons. In general, you do want to have weapons that produce damage effects that almost guarantee death to any person hit by them.

I think what weapons are issued or (if different units use different weapons) what unit is put into the field depends on the situation. You wouldn't send squad of laser equiped soldiers to fight on a world with a dense, foggy, rainy atmosphere. You might not want to send in a squad with FGMP's if you are doing a police action in an urban environment where you don't want any collateral damage.

As with most things on this web site, people will probably argue regarding exactly how it should be done. Although there might be a 'typical' configuration, IMO it depends in the situation.

 

[dreamingbadger]

As protection is developed, so are weapons. In general, you do want to have weapons that produce damage effects that almost guarantee death to any person hit by them.

I think what weapons are issued or (if different units use different weapons) what unit is put into the field depends on the situation. You wouldn't send squad of laser equiped soldiers to fight on a world with a dense, foggy, rainy atmosphere. You might not want to send in a squad with FGMP's if you are doing a police action in an urban environment where you don't want any collateral damage.

As with most things on this web site, people will probably argue regarding exactly how it should be done. Although there might be a 'typical' configuration, IMO it depends in the situation.

I won't disagree with the principle of using the right tool for the job!

In an ideal scenario, you would, but sometimes that make it more challenging for the PC's... give-em "Battle Dress & FGMP's" its what they trained in, and then give them a police action in an urban environment, with zero acceptable civilian casualties and put your copy of Prison Planet on the table :twisted:

 

[Bygoneyrs]

Remember too, that PC's should not have the cash to purchas BattleDress without some effort on their part. Oh in time they can but that is a ongoing issue for them and etc. Just because it is there doesn't mean the players "should" have it. In my game BattleDress and Powered BattleDress are illegal to be owned by a individual citizen. They are owned by the military, governments and special 'concerns' only!!! Now this doesn't mean that suits are not out there in private citizens or organization's hands.

Penn

 

[Sevya]

Traditionally, PGMP's and FGMP's are standard infantry weapons at TL14+. However, the Core Rule Book implies, and CSC specifically states that units armed entirely with this way are rare. But what's the alternative? At these TL's the targets will be wearing combat armor at least, if not battle dress. Gauss rifles are normally considered the next step down, but they have trouble causing serious injury to someone in that kind of armor.

Sevya[/img]

 

[Golan2072]

Traditionally, PGMP's and FGMP's are standard infantry weapons at TL14+. However, the Core Rule Book implies, and CSC specifically states that units armed entirely with this way are rare. But what's the alternative? At these TL's the targets will be wearing combat armor at least, if not battle dress. Gauss rifles are normally considered the next step down, but they have trouble causing serious injury to someone in that kind of armor.

Probably either high-powered X-ray repeating lasers or next-generation gauss weapons firing high-end armor-piercing needles.

 

[alois8113]

Probably either high-powered X-ray repeating lasers or next-generation gauss weapons firing high-end armor-piercing needles.

One problem I can see with that scenario is that it negates some of the strengths of Battledress-equipped troops. The enhanced strength it provides would allow heavier weapons to be handled with the same ease as conventional firearms. Of course, if you could get a squad-support version of those weapon types...

Another problem is that I haven't really seen the existence of second-generation gauss weaponry mentioned anywhere. What do you imagine the statistics for that would look like?

Remember too, that PC's should not have the cash to purchas BattleDress without some effort on their part. Oh in time they can but that is a ongoing issue for them and etc. Just because it is there doesn't mean the players "should" have it. In my game BattleDress and Powered BattleDress are illegal to be owned by a individual citizen. They are owned by the military, governments and special 'concerns' only!!! Now this doesn't mean that suits are not out there in private citizens or organization's hands.

I'm not really envisioning a typical tramp freighter or jack-of-all-trades group when I think of advanced military hardware, no. At least I hope not! But for the purposes of people who might be interested in a military game, or high-end mercenaries, the armament of these kinds of troops is a serious question.

 

[ShadowDrake]

My personal dislike for the massive weapons shift with battledress is the immediate reduction in the value of armor. Even TL 14 battledress might as well be cardboard when FGMPs start showing up. And forget cover--that thing will go right through your pansy concrete wall. It's a switch from something resembling Black Hawk Down with cool SFX to some anime show about giant robots and their plasma cannons. It also hardens the line between military and non-military characters--non military characters simply can not compete with characters equipped to a military standard. TL 13 and below, they can compete (very badly, probably, but they still can), but at TL 14+, there simply isn't any way your players can blast their way through the stormtroopers to get to the Millennium Falcon, because the stormtroopers do 16d6 damage per shot and have protection 18 armor.
In 90% of adventures, the PCs will PO someone important who happens to control battledress troops (mine will, anyway). Having it end in TPK by fusion fire is semi-fun exactly once. Even then, it's iffy.
The problem is making powered armor cool and useful without making it an instant death machine, if you ask me. My technique is simply to play in a lower TL traveller, where battledress is for shock troops and heavy infantry, and everyone else wears combat armor. This probably isn't going to be suitable for everyone, though.

 

[Infojunky]

Traditionally the squad support weapon of your average Space Marine squad is the Tac-Nuc grav powered drone. So whether or not each trooper is armed with fusion or plasma weapons is kinda moot.

 

[Vile]

I think this offensive capability jump is actually in line with things in the RW. No matter what neat weapons 'adventurers' like mercenaries, pirates or organised criminals get their hand on today, they still pale in comparison with military might. In Traveller your PCs hae access to major weaponry like starship lasers and autocannon - but they'll still get their butts kicked if they tangle head-on with the imperial marines. It's supposed to be overkill, because it takes a lot of effort and organisation to go up against a military force.

Of course, once PCs get their hands on fusion weaponry, all bets are off ...

 

[alois8113]

Another thing which only just occurred to me: why bother with Battledress at all? If these kinds of weapons can punch it out without any significant reduction in power, why pay MCr2-MCr4 for something that won't help your survival on the ultra-tech battlefield?

Of course, it will stop (or slow down) things like gauss rifles, but combat armour only costs Cr600,000 at worst, and provides protection almost as good. It's a big saving for only a small step down, and if PGMPs and FGMPs are the default weapons at TL14-15 the extra 2 points of armour won't make much of a difference.

 

[Vile]

I think the main benefit is not the extra armour but the extra load-bearing capacity. It allows the infantryman to carry much bigger weapons, making it more of an offensive system than a defensive one.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Traditionally, PGMP's and FGMP's are standard infantry weapons at TL14+. However, the Core Rule Book implies, and CSC specifically states that units armed entirely with this way are rare. But what's the alternative? At these TL's the targets will be wearing combat armor at least, if not battle dress. Gauss rifles are normally considered the next step down, but they have trouble causing serious injury to someone in that kind of armor.

Sevya[/img]

This being why IMMGTU, weapons do more damage than they do in the MGT books (e.g. a pistol does 3d6 minus zero, a rifle/assault rifle/ACR does 4d6, and a gauss rifle (well, a military-grade one) does 5d6) - this way, a Marine with any armor and a gauss rifle will stand a chance against troops in battledress, especially when using explosive rounds, and a lower-tech trooper might be able to fight off a trooper in combat armor.

Though I should mention that I've adopted the armor changes that Golan made (though IMMGTU I'm also going to rewrite the TL scale).

 

[Sevya]

Traditionally the squad support weapon of your average Space Marine squad is the Tac-Nuc grav powered drone. So whether or not each trooper is armed with fusion or plasma weapons is kinda moot.

Tac missiles, yes. Nuclear warheads, not so much. I have always viewed the use of nukes in Traveller as a "special occasion" weapon. And the more I think about it, with the radiation damage FGMP's may now fit into that category. The last I heard, the US policy on the use of nuclear weapons was that we reserve the right to use them in response to them being used on us, and even then we'd probably use a conventional response.

Sevya

 

[Infojunky]

Traditionally the squad support weapon of your average Space Marine squad is the Tac-Nuc grav powered drone. So whether or not each trooper is armed with fusion or plasma weapons is kinda moot.

Tac missiles, yes. Nuclear warheads, not so much.

Just telling you what the traditional assumption.

I have always viewed the use of nukes in Traveller as a "special occasion" weapon. And the more I think about it, with the radiation damage FGMP's may now fit into that category. The last I heard, the US policy on the use of nuclear weapons was that we reserve the right to use them in response to them being used on us, and even then we'd probably use a conventional response.

So what does the United States policy have to do with the Imperium's?

 

[Sevya]

Traditionally the squad support weapon of your average Space Marine squad is the Tac-Nuc grav powered drone. So whether or not each trooper is armed with fusion or plasma weapons is kinda moot.

Tac missiles, yes. Nuclear warheads, not so much.

Just telling you what the traditional assumption.

As was I. We seem to have different traditional assumptions.

So what does the United States policy have to do with the Imperium's?

I was presenting the US policy as an example of a mainstream nation's policy.

Sevya

 

[Infojunky]

Tac missiles, yes. Nuclear warheads, not so much.

Just telling you what the traditional assumption.

As was I. We seem to have different traditional assumptions.

So what does the United States policy have to do with the Imperium's?

I was presenting the US policy as an example of a mainstream nation's policy.

Ah! Still don't see how that is applicable.

The Imperial marine operate with no Backup. As such they are going to use whatever means they have to settle the issue at hand as quickly and permanently as possible.

They don't worry about public opinion period.

Neither do their Imperial masters.

In terms of Traveller I suggest you go back and read Piper's works, they have a lot of the genesis of the Imperial attitude that made it into Traveller.

 

[FreeTrav]

In terms of Traveller I suggest you go back and read Piper's works, they have a lot of the genesis of the Imperial attitude that made it into Traveller.

Indeed, although I believe I can also see some influence from Pournelle's Co-Dominium/Empire of Man universe.

Is it time to resurrect/restart anew the "What SF books seem Travelleresque to you and why?" thread?

 

[Sevya]

The Imperial marine operate with no Backup. As such they are going to use whatever means they have to settle the issue at hand as quickly and permanently as possible.

They don't worry about public opinion period.

Neither do their Imperial masters.

Maybe they don't care about public opinion, but the Imperial government does care about economic damage, even if the marine on the ground does not. With the exception of a major war, most ground actions the marines participate in are quelling wars that threaten the Imperial economy, as defined in the Imperial Rules of War.

Also, what threat cannot be dealt with using conventional weapons? Especially if the term "Conventional Weapons" includes fusion guns? The amount of collateral damage caused by a nuclear strike is not worth the destruction of the target. Unless the objective is the destruction of an entire city, or region of the landscape, in which case it's not usually the marines' job. These missions are normally performed by air strikes, artillery or naval vessels in orbit. There definitely are missions in which the marines would need and have nuclear weapons, but it would not be the norm. Starship Troopers (the novel, not the movie) is a good example of this.

In terms of Traveller I suggest you go back and read Piper's works, they have a lot of the genesis of the Imperial attitude that made it into Traveller.

What is his full name? I would like to look him up and look into his works.

Sevya

 

[Infojunky]

Also, what threat cannot be dealt with using conventional weapons? Especially if the term "Conventional Weapons" includes fusion guns? The amount of collateral damage caused by a nuclear strike is not worth the destruction of the target. Unless the objective is the destruction of an entire city, or region of the landscape, in which case it's not usually the marines' job. These missions are normally performed by air strikes, artillery or naval vessels in orbit. There definitely are missions in which the marines would need and have nuclear weapons, but it would not be the norm. Starship Troopers (the novel, not the movie) is a good example of this.

I believe you are vastly overestimating the lasting effects of nuclear weapons in the Traveller Universe. Couple this with with underestimating the amount of damage that "conventional" weapons can cause.

And really what is the difference between a 1000 kilo conventional bomb and .001 kt clean nuke? Other than the nuke is 1% the size of the bomb.

Which is a force multiplier in the Marines favor.

Nuclear Dampers are also used to decontaminate residual radiological contamination, which probably much easier to deal with than chemical contamination.

In terms of Traveller I suggest you go back and read Piper's works, they have a lot of the genesis of the Imperial attitude that made it into Traveller.

What is his full name? I would like to look him up and look into his works.[/quote]

H. Beam Piper.