Only 1 Computer?

[Geir]

(so completely off the subject, but since I read the books a while back but never played any version in this century: in 5e all the wound hit points come back after a rest period? Or did I just read that entirely wrong.)

Mongoose Traveller is to a large extent already back to basics, more structured than Classic without all the confusion of Mega, the disappointment of TNE, and the marketing failure of T4 (and in some cases, *cough* First Survey *cough*, complete failure of editorial review or common sense). And then a whole bunch of other derivatives based on other systems and the monster that is T5. So it is more a question of keeping track and control of the mechanics and odd rule quirks than any massive re-write. This is in my opinion the most consistently playable version of the game.

 

[AndrewW]

If Mongoose goes the way of D&D for stupid people, ie. 5th Ed, I'd quit playing, same as I did for D&D after they moved to 4th Ed. If large swaths of the official universe needs to be retconned to fit new rules, then they are better off just making a new game and not calling it Traveller. Every modern day article about D&D that I have seen is about how they are rewriting this or "updating" that to the point where they no longer fit into their OTU, such as Forgotten Realms in D&D.

No need to quit just play the rule set you like and ignore the new stuff.

 

[tytalan]

A lot of this can be solved using robots. Since your basically talking adding more hardware to be able to run more software create dedicated robots. You want better fire control and virtual gunners create a robot gunner that plunges into the turret to replace your gunner. Other things can also be done using the robot handbook.
Let’s think about the bandwidth of the ships computer isn’t the entirety of the processing power of the computer network it’s just the processing power available after running everything else. Every system on the ship uses some of the network available processing capacity. You make it sound like the only thing the network is doing is running the few programs you buy but that’s far from the case. In many ways a ship is like a factory there’s a lot of distributed processing capacity in a modern factory but it’s busy keeping the ship running

 

[Sigtrygg]

(so completely off the subject, but since I read the books a while back but never played any version in this century: in 5e all the wound hit points come back after a rest period? Or did I just read that entirely wrong.)

Mongoose Traveller is to a large extent already back to basics, more structured than Classic without all the confusion of Mega, the disappointment of TNE, and the marketing failure of T4 (and in some cases, *cough* First Survey *cough*, complete failure of editorial review or common sense). And then a whole bunch of other derivatives based on other systems and the monster that is T5. So it is more a question of keeping track and control of the mechanics and odd rule quirks than any massive re-write. This is in my opinion the most consistently playable version of the game.

I really wish I could agree with you but I can't. Mongoose 2e is now a bloated mess with rules scattered everywhere and contradictory systems for determining things in different supplements. It is a great game but moving forward - simplify.

Go and get the facsimile edition of CT - that is what back to basics looks like.

Get rid of skill bloat.

Get rid of task rolls for every simple action.

Simplify the task system or get rid of it all together (CT ref makes up a target number on the fly or rolls 2D or 3D for the target number if they can't decide on a number)

Simplify combat.

I find it almost laughable that you mention editorial review - how many similar systems for doing the same thing are now in print, thanks to different authors doing their own thing, not to mention weapon design rules that can not duplicate any weapon in the core rules or central supply catalogue. Then there is the mess of the vehicle design system.

Look to TNE and T4 - if you are going to have a technical architecture then do that first then build your game around it.

Striker and then Mt were valiant attempts, but it wasn't until TNE and FF&S that there was joined up thinking.

The 3rd Edition of mongoose Traveller should start with a simple question - to detail the tech or not. if it is to be detailed then rip off both versions of FF&S and add T5. Otherwise just handwave everything.
Decide how tasks will work, combat, armour, damage etc.

Then make sure authors use the rules as written, there are three years until the 50th anniversary, I want a mongoose Traveller 3rd edition. I will continue supporting Mongoose by purchasing their products because I think they do a great job.

 

[tytalan]

As far as a new edition goes I agree with Geir and I’ll add the fact that as soon as they consolidate the rules like some have talked about they will start spreading out. Almost every supplement adds rules to the system so they produce a consolidated rule set than a year or two later your back where you where before. It’s a never ending process unless you stop producing the game. Me I’d rather they keep adding things instead of wasting resources

 

[MasterGwydion]

No need to quit just play the rule set you like and ignore the new stuff.

I like new material every so often. After a few years of a company moving on from their ruleset to a new one that doesn't work as well, for My style of play, I have done every type of campaign in short term that I wish to do in their setting. I've run games in My own setting using the old ruleset, but eventually I just get bored rereading the same material. Using D&D as an example. I started way back in the day, so switching to 3rd Ed, was not My first edition change nor would it be My last. The new 3rd edition ruleset, removed many artificial limits that never made sense to Me within the system like AC being a number from 10 to -10 with very few exceptions and THAC0. I like how in 3rd Ed everything was linear. To hit, AC, skills, saving throws everything. Just add it up and call it done. but what really sold Me was the respect 3rd ed showed for the setting of the Forgotten Realms and the high-quality Forgotten Realms material that was put out in 3rd ed.

I wouldn't mind tweaks to Traveller such as things are being discussed often here on the board, but anything going forward needs to respect the setting that was designed from the previous editions, not have tons of retcons, and put out high-quality setting material within the Charted Space setting. I like Mongoose as they seem to do a pretty good job of this. Most of the time anyhow, and "most of the time" is acceptable to Me.

 

[MasterGwydion]

As far as a new edition goes I agree with Geir and I’ll add the fact that as soon as they consolidate the rules like some have talked about they will start spreading out. Almost every supplement adds rules to the system so they produce a consolidated rule set than a year or two later your back where you where before. It’s a never ending process unless you stop producing the game. Me I’d rather they keep adding things instead of wasting resources

That is why the index book that Geir and I were talking about should be a pdf that can be updated. Updated PDFs are one of My favorite things about Mongoose right now since most of My collection is electronic. My books hate tropical island weather without air conditioning.

I like that as Mongoose find issues in their previous books, they can change the pdf, fix it, and focus most of their attention on writing new material for Us to drool over.

(Geir - I am still waiting for the colony management part of the World Tamer's Handbook that didn't make the transfer to your Worldbuilder's book. lol! )

 

[Geir]

(Geir - I am still waiting for the colony management part of the World Tamer's Handbook that didn't make the transfer to your Worldbuilder's book. lol! )

I think that belongs with a Pocket-Empires sort of book. WBH is meant to be a static view. But that's not to say that a Colony management/Pocket Empires sort of thing wouldn't be a cool book to run with.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think that belongs with a Pocket-Empires sort of book. WBH is meant to be a static view. But that's not to say that a Colony management/Pocket Empires sort of thing wouldn't be a cool book to run with.

Fair enough. I would totally buy that book!

 

[Vormaerin]

I definitely don't want to go back to CT skill resolution where every single skill had a different way of resolving things. Though I would like skill ranks to matter more and stat modifiers to matter less in some putative future edition. That's a thing CT definitely did better.

Nor do I think MgT2e has a skill bloat problem. Some skills think don't need subskills (Athletics, for instance). I certainly don't want to go back to CT's every single weapon is it's own skill. CT has like 25 skills vs MgT2e's 40. But those extra skills are like operating vehicles that aren't ATVs or Air/Rafts, doing anything like science, and more social skills.

The LBBs were definitely from the era of OD&D that assumed PCs are adventurers so the can any use any weapon and don't need specific skills in things like stealth, Recon, or Survival. You wouldn't be going on adventures if you couldn't do those things expertly, right? Much more important to know if the PC could function as a forward observer for artillery or ortillery competently

I love the LBBs, didn't switch out of them for MT, TNE, or T4. Did for Mgt2e, though. MgT2e has its issues. But I don't think it needs peeled back like that.

Expanded systems that don't really work, like the gun design rules, I just ignore. But, tbh, I would have ignored them if even they did work in tandem with the core rules instead of replacing them.

IMHO, the two major shortcomings that need to be addressed are

1) Too many skill tests that serve no purpose or are too high. It needs to be emphasized that "Average difficulty" is 'average difficulty for a dangerous task worthy of the spotlight of a die roll' not just the average use of that skill by some dude doing his standard day job.

2) More focus on GM advice for how to actually run the core gameplay. How do you the trade table to generate adventures? How do you make exploring a new system exciting to play out? How do you make colonizing a new world into fun game play? We have raw mechanics for lots of these things, but nothing that helps the DM turn them into adventures.

That's one thing that Stars Without Number does really well and Traveller does not. I've been DMing since the late 70s, so sure, I've figured that stuff out for my own purposes. But the game does not help with that. CT at least had a lot of procedural things...too procedural for modern tastes.. but it gave you stuff on generating patron encounters, rumors, passersby, legal hassles, etc.

Right now, if my players want to buy Zilan wine and sell it on Aramanx, it tells me what to roll for the purchase and selling prices. But it provides no leads for how that becomes an adventure. So if introduce complications to that process, I'm pulling it out of my behind and my players are like 'where is all this paperwork coming from? The trade rules don't say anything about import taxes?" (my players trust me so they wouldn't actually say that, but if we were all new to the game, I could see that happening easily).


Anyway, sorry about that. It's about 110% off topic.

 

[Vormaerin]

On the actual topic.... I honestly don't know why exactly we need "programs" for all these things in the first place. IMHO, the machinery of a starship should come with the stuff to operate it. Your computer should be costed on the TL of the overall ship's systems for any time there's a TL vs TL comparison. Bandwidth is non existent. Replace the software with system upgrades. I have superior fire control than the default for my TL. Costs whatever. I have better anti hijack. That's not just a bit of code in the system. It's better hardware. Costs money.

That's my thought on the subject.

 

[Geir]

On the actual topic.... I honestly don't know why exactly we need "programs" for all these things in the first place. IMHO, the machinery of a starship should come with the stuff to operate it. Your computer should be costed on the TL of the overall ship's systems for any time there's a TL vs TL comparison. Bandwidth is non existent. Replace the software with system upgrades. I have superior fire control than the default for my TL. Costs whatever. I have better anti hijack. That's not just a bit of code in the system. It's better hardware. Costs money.

That's my thought on the subject.

Not a bad thought at all. There are things like basic capabilities that could be upgrade, but you're correct, the system should come with the stuff to make it work. Fire control comes with and for specific weapons, an anti-hijack system is special sensors, equipment, AND software to run it, etc. More systems would need to follow the basic/improved/enhanced/advanced paradigm, but that's not a bad thing.

I might have opened the door a bit with the Robot Handbook, where you could put a 'robot gunner' in each turret, but if that 'robot gunner' is just a legless box plugged into the interface, then it really is just a dedicated fire control system for that weapon. Same goes for a robot pilot (though Evade as written works a bit differently and doesn't use Thrust - but that's rule bug in itself... a Plot skill of 4 buys you little on a Thrust 1 ship, but you could zip around those laser blasts if you only had Evade/4 - one of these things is wrong - I'm thinking the pilot skill shouldn't tie to Thrust, but that's just me.)

 

[Condottiere]

All we need is an index as a free pdf, which just tells you where everything, or most things, are.

Updated regularly.

Budget it as a marketing tool.

You could even include errata.

 

[Terry Mixon]

All we need is an index as a free pdf, which just tells you where everything, or most things, are.

Updated regularly.

Budget it as a marketing tool.

You could even include errata.

^^^This^^^

 

[Empedocles]

We have been mulling over the idea of the Traveller Rules Compendium...

Even if this only happened for High Guard, I would pay money for it. We use a lot of ship tinkering in our local games. There’s a huge amount of HG content scattered in sourcebooks. The most common problems we have:
- which book is xxx in? I see it on the spreadsheet but can’t find it.
- are there rules for xxx? (‘Where are probes and probe missiles?’)
- the answer to the second question being “yes, in multiple books. Which different system would you like?”

I would love a high guard expansion that consolidated materials - from excursion bays to capital ship turrets, to missile systems - and cleaned them up to be one canonical set. Honestly, I was really disappointed that HG2022 didn’t do this whilst it was making other major revisions.

 

[AndrewW]

Even if this only happened for High Guard, I would pay money for it. We use a lot of ship tinkering in our local games. There’s a huge amount of HG content scattered in sourcebooks. The most common problems we have:
- which book is xxx in? I see it on the spreadsheet but can’t find it.
- are there rules for xxx? (‘Where are probes and probe missiles?’)
- the answer to the second question being “yes, in multiple books. Which different system would you like?”

I would love a high guard expansion that consolidated materials - from excursion bays to capital ship turrets, to missile systems - and cleaned them up to be one canonical set. Honestly, I was really disappointed that HG2022 didn’t do this whilst it was making other major revisions.

A lot of stuff was consolidated into the 2nd edition High Guard, but of course it has expanded since then.

This should help:
Ship Components index

 

[MasterGwydion]

Not a bad thought at all. There are things like basic capabilities that could be upgrade, but you're correct, the system should come with the stuff to make it work. Fire control comes with and for specific weapons, an anti-hijack system is special sensors, equipment, AND software to run it, etc. More systems would need to follow the basic/improved/enhanced/advanced paradigm, but that's not a bad thing.

I might have opened the door a bit with the Robot Handbook, where you could put a 'robot gunner' in each turret, but if that 'robot gunner' is just a legless box plugged into the interface, then it really is just a dedicated fire control system for that weapon. Same goes for a robot pilot (though Evade as written works a bit differently and doesn't use Thrust - but that's rule bug in itself... a Plot skill of 4 buys you little on a Thrust 1 ship, but you could zip around those laser blasts if you only had Evade/4 - one of these things is wrong - I'm thinking the pilot skill shouldn't tie to Thrust, but that's just me.)

Scrap Bandwidth and general computers completely and go with an upgradable complete component package? So if I wanted to upgrade My ship with Fire Control/2, it would include the hardware and software together in one unit? If so, that would make everything soooo much simpler and imo better. From both realism and gameplay standpoints. I could totally get behind seeing this in the next set of Core Book Upgrades.

 

[Vormaerin]

You wouldn't scrap computers in general, imho. Computers would just not run specific programs. The computer computer's function would be to define the operating TL of all systems on the ship. You pay for the TL 15 computer if you want your systems to count as TL 15 when TL modifiers matter. Which they do in quite a few cases. It should, imho, cost money to have a more advanced ship. And you should be able to build a TL 15 Free Trader if you want. I've had people try to tell me that the component first becomes available at TL 10 so it functions at TL 10 in the otherwise TL 15 ship. Having a general computer cost (which is just money, essentially, since computers don't take up space and the power comes out of the general systems cost). You can rename it if you want, but leaving it as computer is simpler, IMHO.

But it isn't counting programs. It runs everything at that level. Current software is replaced with components. Your computer has fire control if you have weapons installed. Fire Control/2 is a component you can buy to say "Hey, I have better than the default fire control for my TL".

 

[Condottiere]

The problem with the computer aspect, is, that it's pretty much stuck in the Seventies.

I would suppose the point of bandwidth is to restrict the number of programmes run simultaneously.

I tend to think it should be unlimited, but a case of diminishing returns.

We could complicate it with latency.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have always used the TL of the Shipyard that builds it, unless they specifically build it at a lower TL. Although, I would find it hard to believe that you could buy a galleon at the Newport News Shipyards. Why would it be any different for spacecraft? If the shipyard is TL-12, then the ship is TL-12, and all of the components are TL-12. If they get something replaced at a shipyard of a different TL, then that new part is whatever the TL of the shipyard that installed it. Even the J-1 Engine is TL-12. (which, I know, doesn't make much sense.)