Only 1 Computer?

[Vormaerin]

I mean, yes? But TL is a stand in for general quality here. I can build on the cheap with basic components and i3 chips if that's all I expect to need. Or I can build with an i9 that costs quite a bit more and performs quite a bit better. Those are both TL8 computers.

Also, that idea makes every ship a custom ship. So a Type A free trader built at Regina is different than one built at Efate, which is different from one built at Glisten. But that's not reflected in the cost anywhere. If that's the case, you can be 100% sure no one's PC is gonna have their new ship built at Regina, the lowest tech class A starport in the subsector.

Call it control system or system quality or whatever if computer annoys you. But the reality is that the shipyard is building the hull, not all the components. And you need a way to indicate (and price!) the general sophistication of the ship's overall systems. At some point, you have to suck it up that this is a game and abstract the details.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I mean, yes? But TL is a stand in for general quality here. I can build on the cheap with basic components and i3 chips if that's all I expect to need. Or I can build with an i9 that costs quite a bit more and performs quite a bit better. Those are both TL8 computers.

Also, that idea makes every ship a custom ship. So a Type A free trader built at Regina is different than one built at Efate, which is different from one built at Glisten. But that's not reflected in the cost anywhere. If that's the case, you can be 100% sure no one's PC is gonna have their new ship built at Regina, the lowest tech class A starport in the subsector.

Call it control system or system quality or whatever if computer annoys you. But the reality is that the shipyard is building the hull, not all the components. And you need a way to indicate (and price!) the general sophistication of the ship's overall systems. At some point, you have to suck it up that this is a game and abstract the details.

All of those systems that you named have Shipyard TLs of their Mainworld. Standard Starports within the Imperium are TL-12. Each of those Shipyards, in the systems that you named, produce better ships then the "Standard Imperial Starport Shipyard."

Traveller Tech-wise, an i3 is not better than an i9. They are both TL7 and in Traveller, therefore equal. In real life? No, they are vastly different, you are correct. In Traveller, the differences only matter between TLs. So your comparison would need to be between a Fugaku, and an ATLAS. Those would be different TLs, maybe.

When did TL become a stand-in for general quality? Why does Tech Level not mean Tech Level? This is really starting to get on My nerves. Bandwidth doesn't mean Bandwidth. Holographic doesn't mean actually holographic. Computer doesn't mean Computer. and now Tech Level doesn't mean Tech Level?

Mongoose needs to explain to Me what language their books are written in, because none of these terms in Traveller actually mean what they mean.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I guess simply put a TL-15 shipyard wouldn't have the infrastructure to build a ship 4 to 6 TLs below itself, anymore than a modern day shipyard is equipped to build wooden sailing ships. They can build sailing ships, but they are TL-7 or 8 sailing ships, not TL-2 or 3. Hell, the US Navy has to grow trees specifically to repair the USS Constitution and the restoration was done a Dry Dock 1 at the Charleston Navy Yard. That dry dock was built in 1833, 35 years after the ship's original commission.

 

[Vormaerin]

No, I meant that the computer in my hypothetical alternate rule would be a stand in for the general level of sophistication of the all the systems of the ship. I don't think it should be "build your free trader on Glisten and its TL15. Build it on Regina and it is TL12, but its the same cost either way.".

If you do say that TL, which is a distinct mechanically important value in its own right not just a parameter of what is installable, is just a function of starport, then you really can't have standard ships like all the books keep publishing. Because almost nowhere actually would build the ship as described. Only 2 of the 14 starports in the Regina/Aramis/Rhylanor/Lanth quadrant actually build ships at TL 12. Most are better and a few are worse.

TL is a straight up modifier to some sensor rolls, independent of the specific system. Like stealth detection. Or missile targeting. It's a factor in high guard fleet combat offensive and defensive ratings.

So you could rewrite the rules and have Civilian Sensors TL 8 through 15 with difference costs and do this for all the systems on the ship at the individual level. Or, my preference, you use the existing computer models in a new way, to price in the overall sophistication of the ship's operating systems with the existing computer prices and TLs. "Totally cheap bare bones garbage that a top end TL8 system could compete with? Model/1, costs 30000 credits. Ultra sophisticated state of the art systems only available at TL 15? That's the model 7, costs 30 million credits.

Then when someone says, hey, I'm getting my far trader built at the TL 13 Efate Starport instead of Regina's TL 12 like the old one, what does that mean? It means it costs 5 million credits more and the baseline for the systems is now TL13. Instead of recalculating every system in the game.

 

[Vormaerin]

If you are going to go with individual components given TLs, you might as well go the full Fire, Fusion, and Steel level and redo the entire shipbuilding system around that concept. Its not just modifying the way control systems work.

 

[MasterGwydion]

No, I meant that the computer in my hypothetical alternate rule would be a stand in for the general level of sophistication of the all the systems of the ship. I don't think it should be "build your free trader on Glisten and its TL15. Build it on Regina and it is TL12, but its the same cost either way.".

If you do say that TL, which is a distinct mechanically important value in its own right not just a parameter of what is installable, is just a function of starport, then you really can't have standard ships like all the books keep publishing. Because almost nowhere actually would build the ship as described. Only 2 of the 14 starports in the Regina/Aramis/Rhylanor/Lanth quadrant actually build ships at TL 12. Most are better and a few are worse.

TL is a straight up modifier to some sensor rolls, independent of the specific system. Like stealth detection. Or missile targeting. It's a factor in high guard fleet combat offensive and defensive ratings.

So you could rewrite the rules and have Civilian Sensors TL 8 through 15 with difference costs and do this for all the systems on the ship at the individual level. Or, my preference, you use the existing computer models in a new way, to price in the overall sophistication of the ship's operating systems with the existing computer prices and TLs. "Totally cheap bare bones garbage that a top end TL8 system could compete with? Model/1, costs 30000 credits. Ultra sophisticated state of the art systems only available at TL 15? That's the model 7, costs 30 million credits.

Then when someone says, hey, I'm getting my far trader built at the TL 13 Efate Starport instead of Regina's TL 12 like the old one, what does that mean? It means it costs 5 million credits more and the baseline for the systems is now TL13. Instead of recalculating every system in the game.

No Imperial Starport has a TL lower than 12. 12 is the floor set by the SPA. The Free Trader built on Glisten would be TL-15 and be the same price as a TL-12 Free Trader on Regina. Now if Glisten at TL-15, wanted to build a TL-12 Free Trader, they could, due to all SPA Starports being required to support TL-12 activities. I would say that it would be much cheaper or much faster to build TL-12 at TL-15 than to build TL-12 at TL-12. I would recommend either making it cheaper (Make the % increase (on the Prototype/Advanced chart on pg 70 of HG) into a % decrease of the price. TL-12 Free Trader built at a TL-13 Shipyard? 10% discount. TL-12 Free Trader at a TL-14 Shipyard? 25% discount.

You can either pass those savings directly on to your PCs, or you can use that new number to determine how long it takes to build that ship. I hate the rule that all shipyards build a 1MCr/ per whatever timefame, but this would make higher TL shipyards faster at building things than the lower TL shipyards, which is how it should be.

So, yes, this would effect several things, such as sensors and such. It should. It is more advanced, for the same price. I usually spend about the same price everytime I buy a new computer, $2,500 or so. I have been paying that every time since about 1996 or so. The capabilities improved, but the price stayed the same.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If you are going to go with individual components given TLs, you might as well go the full Fire, Fusion, and Steel level and redo the entire shipbuilding system around that concept. Its not just modifying the way control systems work.

We already have this all over the place. Almost every time a TL is listed for an item or a system, that is the minimum TL for the item or system (unless it is a prototype), the maximum is whatever TL you can build it up to. What is the TL of a Laser Drill? Book says TL-8 HG pg 28. So do you mean to say that when I build a TL-15 mining ship, I am using a TL-8 laser? I would say no. I am using a TL-15 laser drill with TL-8 capabilities making it the same price as a TL-8 laser drill (It should be cheaper, but whatever). According to HG pg 70, I can build a TL-15 Laser with TL-11 capabilities for +50% the price of a TL-8 Laser Drill and get 3 Advantages.

 

[Vormaerin]

No Imperial Starport has a TL lower than 12. 12 is the floor set by the SPA.

Do you have a citation for that rule? Because there are a lot of planets with class A starports that are less than TL12. And if they can build ships with TL12 despite being TL 10 or 11 (or sometimes lower) as you are apparently saying, then I don't see why TL 15 can't build 'standard designs" that are functionally TL 12.

Anyway, we are just talking house rules here. If you want to replace the super cheapy computer on tramp freighters with high end badass equipment just to get rid of bandwidth, that's fine. It is farther than I want to go, personally.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Do you have a citation for that rule? Because there are a lot of planets with class A starports that are less than TL12. And if they can build ships with TL12 despite being TL 10 or 11 (or sometimes lower) as you are apparently saying, then I don't see why TL 15 can't build 'standard designs" that are functionally TL 12.

Anyway, we are just talking house rules here. If you want to replace the super cheapy computer on tramp freighters with high end badass equipment just to get rid of bandwidth, that's fine. It is farther than I want to go, personally.

I do not have the citation in front of Me as I need to rebuy My copy, but I believe that it is in the Mongoose Starports book. If any of My fellow geeks can give Me a hand?

 

[Geir]

I do not have the citation in front of Me as I need to rebuy My copy, but I believe that it is in the Mongoose Starports book. If any of My fellow geeks can give Me a hand?

Sure make me drag out a paper copy from 2011:
Starports, page 43: Most SPA starports have full access to TL 12 (or higher) equipment and facilities...

And then it goes on to say that this doesn't necessarily apply outside the Third Imperium or for independent starports.

 

[Condottiere]

I wouldn't touch current Intel architecture, especially seven and nine subseries.

As regards technological level of starport facilities, I presume that since they're certified, the minimum is technological level twelve for Imperium run ones, since that the technological level that was current when the Imperium was kick started.

 

[Vormaerin]

Which just goes to show that starport construction TL is not actually based on the TL of the planet it happens to be located at. The reason most civilian ships are built at TL12 equivalents, even if they are manufactured with TL15 processes, is so that you can actually get your ship repaired and maintained in a wide range of ports. Also, for ease of gameplay, so you can just say "standard free traders function as if TL 12" and you don't have to track that this one is from Efate and that one from Glisten and the other one from Towers (three different TL shipyards).

Anyway, all I am getting at is that you can build things at a given TL that range from bare bones basic to state of the art. The free traders are built with a bare bones basic computer system. This is currently reflected in severely limited bandwidth. Which we agree does not really make a lot of sense. However, imho, there should still be something reflects that the overall electronic infrastructure of the ship is basically Radio Shack parts. That's why the entire control system for their ship only costs 45,000 credits.

I would prefer to repurpose the existing mechanism for reflecting that because it already exists complete with TL equivalents and pricing. Because it is simple and lets us say that all the things that we don't upgrade individually perform based on that level of functionality.

And I don't want to introduce the idea that PCs should be pestering the GM to have their free trader be Rhylanor built because that's 3 better at detecting stealth ships and 2 better at shooting and defending in space battles (among other things) over a free trader built on Regina with no extra costs.

 

[Condottiere]

You can run a starship using an iPhone.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Which just goes to show that starport construction TL is not actually based on the TL of the planet it happens to be located at. The reason most civilian ships are built at TL12 equivalents, even if they are manufactured with TL15 processes, is so that you can actually get your ship repaired and maintained in a wide range of ports. Also, for ease of gameplay, so you can just say "standard free traders function as if TL 12" and you don't have to track that this one is from Efate and that one from Glisten and the other one from Towers (three different TL shipyards).

Anyway, all I am getting at is that you can build things at a given TL that range from bare bones basic to state of the art. The free traders are built with a bare bones basic computer system. This is currently reflected in severely limited bandwidth. Which we agree does not really make a lot of sense. However, imho, there should still be something reflects that the overall electronic infrastructure of the ship is basically Radio Shack parts. That's why the entire control system for their ship only costs 45,000 credits.

I would prefer to repurpose the existing mechanism for reflecting that because it already exists complete with TL equivalents and pricing. Because it is simple and lets us say that all the things that we don't upgrade individually perform based on that level of functionality.

And I don't want to introduce the idea that PCs should be pestering the GM to have their free trader be Rhylanor built because that's 3 better at detecting stealth ships and 2 better at shooting and defending in space battles (among other things) over a free trader built on Regina with no extra costs.

Let them have the TL-15 Free Trader with all its bonuses, they can only get it worked on at the TL-15 Starport. It gives you bonuses, yes, but the downside is pretty large as well. I think Tobia is the only place in the whole Trojan Reach that you could get the TL-15 Free Trader worked on. (Oh... and Theev) That to Me is a pretty large downside. Did you notice that buying Spare Parts for the Drinaxi Harrier is double the price of regular spare parts? It is TL-15 in an area where no one makes TL-15 Drinaxi spare parts. All of these things can come into play for a player group that wants the "powerful" ship instead. I see no reason why a Core/40 can't be TL-15. Nowhere in the rules does it say this is the case. (That I have found anyhow) Same with a TL-15 Free Trader built to TL-12 capabilities.

Wait a minute! I just had a thought... (I know, i know. I smell something burning too) If you build a TL-8 item at TL-15, but with TL-8 capabilities, wouldn't that still count as TL-8 for all of the things you are discussing? Isn't that how that works? It would only count as TL-15 for repair and maintenance requirements. Well, and how long it takes to build. Amazing how much faster lower TL ships are built with more advanced fabrication technology. lol They build them faster and cheaper, but charge the same price and pocket the rest of the money that they saved in more efficient production. That sounds like a very megacorp thing to do.

Some of the writers chime in if I am wrong, but anything that lists a TL is the minimum TL for that item or component. Correct? If so, then can it not also be built at a higher TL, but with the same capabilities?

 

[Geir]

There are rules for prototype and early prototypes (and retrotech) in the CSC, but those items are, like the starship components, separate items built at that TL.

The thing that makes me go hmmm... is Stealth. When determining detection, there is the capability of the Stealth, lets go with Improved TL10, with a DM-2. There is also a TL+/- of the detector/steathee(?) Yeah, my lone brain cell is overclocking and burning something now too.

So, a TL12 ship - which is pretty much standard, with Improved Stealth gets the DM-2 for sure, but if the detecting ship is TL11, is the relative TL modifier based on the tech of the stealth (10 - so it is less effective by 1) or the ship (12 - so it is more effective by 1)? My inclination would be to say that it is the ship TL that rules and applies to all components. So Improved Stealth on a TL12 ship is effectively 2 better than Improved Stealth on a TL10 ship. Because if not, then no Stealth on that TL12 ship would be just as effective as Improved Stealth on that ship... if you follow... assuming I left a trail that didn't get eaten by birds...

 

[AndrewW]

Some of the writers chime in if I am wrong, but anything that lists a TL is the minimum TL for that item or component. Correct? If so, then can it not also be built at a higher TL, but with the same capabilities?

Even if some of the components of a ship are TL15 that doesn't mean everything is. To take the Harrier as an example, yes it requires a TL15 shipyard to build but the computer for example is TL12 so wouldn't need a TL15 facility to work on that.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There are rules for prototype and early prototypes (and retrotech) in the CSC, but those items are, like the starship components, separate items built at that TL.

The thing that makes me go hmmm... is Stealth. When determining detection, there is the capability of the Stealth, lets go with Improved TL10, with a DM-2. There is also a TL+/- of the detector/steathee(?) Yeah, my lone brain cell is overclocking and burning something now too.

So, a TL12 ship - which is pretty much standard, with Improved Stealth gets the DM-2 for sure, but if the detecting ship is TL11, is the relative TL modifier based on the tech of the stealth (10 - so it is less effective by 1) or the ship (12 - so it is more effective by 1)? My inclination would be to say that it is the ship TL that rules and applies to all components. So Improved Stealth on a TL12 ship is effectively 2 better than Improved Stealth on a TL10 ship. Because if not, then no Stealth on that TL12 ship would be just as effective as Improved Stealth on that ship... if you follow... assuming I left a trail that didn't get eaten by birds...

The rules for prototypes and retrotech though alter the capabilities, correct? I am talking about building a TL-8 item complete with TL-8 capabilities, but with a higher TL technology.

Stealth becomes available at TL-10 with all the bells and whistles, but if you put Stealth on a TL-12 ship at a TL-12 shipyard, it becomes TL-12 Stealth. In this case then TL-12 would be the TL the enemy sensor operator would have to defeat. My problem with this, because capability scales up with TL, is that the cost of it should also increase to keep it balanced. Sensor price should also scale with TL.

I think We need to first start with defining exactly what TL is and how it is applied. We need to know what happens when you build a Laser Drill at TL-15 eventhough it has the same capabilities as the TL-8 Laser Drill. Is a TL-15 Laser Drill the same price as the TL-8 Laser Drill? We can build a TL-7 knife currently. Or will it always be a TL-1 knife no matter what TL it is built at? Would a steam engine be built the same way today as they were when steam engines were invented? Or would We build a TL-7 steam engine with different materials and upgraded engineering knowledge and yet still be able to keep the capabilities the same?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Even if some of the components of a ship are TL15 that doesn't mean everything is. To take the Harrier as an example, yes it requires a TL15 shipyard to build but the computer for example is TL12 so wouldn't need a TL15 facility to work on that.

Why would a TL-15 (at the time) society be using the equivalent of vacuum tubes to build the computers in their most advanced ships? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

[AndrewW]

Why would a TL-15 (at the time) society be using the equivalent of vacuum tubes to build the computers in their most advanced ships? That makes absolutely no sense.

Because that is all they need? Do consumers always buy the most advanced computer available if something else will meet their needs?

Does make maintenance easier when you don't know if you will always be at a TL15 facility.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Because that is all they need? Do consumers always buy the most advanced computer available if something else will meet their needs?

Does make maintenance easier when you don't know if you will always be at a TL15 facility.

What today uses vacuum tubes? People always buy within their TL. Show Me a real world example of people, who aren't Mennonites or competition horse people, buying horses and buggies as opposed to cars and trucks?

Also, last I checked starfarers were in the extreme minority. People on TL-15 worlds, buy TL-15 goods. People on TL-6 worlds, buy TL-6 goods. There are exceptions, but that is just what they are, exceptions. Most people do not travel to other planets or other star systems. Therefore, most people buy at the TL of their world. You can buy a TL-15 Computer/1 on a TL-15 world. Why? Because they make it there. It is easy to maintain there. Why? Because the world is TL-15. If you buy a new car on a TL-15 world, that car will more than likely be TL-15 as well. See how this works?

You are talking about minor differences within individual TLs. I am talking about from one TL to a different TL. That is a huge difference.

When was the last time you went out and bought a Commodore 64?