Only 1 Computer?

[MasterGwydion]

Hey guys! I was just looking over threads and I am kind of wondering why We use such outdated ideas of how computers function.

In Traveller, We basically have one computer system per ship and potentially a backup that can't actually back it up as it must be one level lower. This one computer basically runs the whole ship. There is no navigational computer, no targeting computer, no computer solo for use in your onboard science lab. Why is everything one computer? I am aware of no non-biological complex electro-mechanical system anywhere that is all run by only one computer. If you install a fuel refinery on your space station, what computer controls the drones? What computer do I hack for that?

 

[Geir]

Hey guys! I was just looking over threads and I am kind of wondering why We use such outdated ideas of how computers function.

In Traveller, We basically have one computer system per ship and potentially a backup that can't actually back it up as it must be one level lower. This one computer basically runs the whole ship. There is no navigational computer, no targeting computer, no computer solo for use in your onboard science lab. Why is everything one computer? I am aware of no non-biological complex electro-mechanical system anywhere that is all run by only one computer. If you install a fuel refinery on your space station, what computer controls the drones? What computer do I hack for that?

Who had that motto "The network is the computer"?
Yes, it's an artifact of a mainframe mentality, but even in descriptions of regular, much less Core computer models in recent publications it's clear that the computer is a bunch of distributed systems operating as a whole.

Yes, some of the rule implications seem 'not right' at this time, but we're at maybe TL8 criticizing game design decisions made at early TL7. At TL10 the paradigm might look different. I'd love to buy a dozen Computer/10 or /5 and run more programs than a Core/40, but the premise of Traveller is about people, not machines, doing things in space (and then we all - myself included, try and design a completely automated ship - go figure - so what do you want consistency?)

 

[Vormaerin]

Ease of use. Just like we don't track a lot of other things. Of course all those things are computerized. But do you really want to be calculating the rating of every single system on the ship individually rather than just giving an aggregate value?

I'm generally fine with "computers in the 57th century are a bit different than those we have today." Your milk cartons are probably computerized at that point and what matters is the aggregate value, as they are networked at a level beyond what we are capable of today.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ease of use. Just like we don't track a lot of other things. Of course all those things are computerized. But do you really want to be calculating the rating of every single system on the ship individually rather than just giving an aggregate value?

I'm generally fine with "computers in the 57th century are a bit different than those we have today." Your milk cartons are probably computerized at that point and what matters is the aggregate value, as they are networked at a level beyond what we are capable of today.

If that were true, then you could continually keep adding bandwidth, but computers here are not upgradable. I am good with an aggregate value, but that doesn't seem to be what We have. Personally, I would think it should work both ways. You have an aggregate score for those that wish it simple, but for those who like more detail, you can break down the aggregate score into its constituent parts. For example, it is unlikely that an unarmed Free Trader would even have a targeting computer, but it is assumed to have one as soon as you install a weapon system.

Correct Me if I am wrong, but isn't bandwidth basically the same as "Computing Power"? If I need to add more "Computing Power", I just add more computers. Same as if I need more power, I just add more tons of power plant.

Perhaps I should just rewrite the computer rules to include something like a price per bandwidth at each TL and a volume per bandwidth per TL... Not sure. Then anyone could build the computer they need to run their systems without completely unbalancing the current system. Then you could have 40 Bandwidth at TL9, but it would cost you and arm and a leg as well as taking up a huge amount of tonnage.

 

[Geir]

Then you could have 40 Bandwidth at TL9, but it would cost you and arm and a leg as well as taking up a huge amount of tonnage.

You can, it would be a Core/40 (TL9, see page 20 of HighGuard'22). MCr45. But it would take up no space, because computers... don't.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You can, it would be a Core/40 (TL9, see page 20 of HighGuard'22). MCr45. But it would take up no space, because computers... don't.

Yeah, Traveller computers exist in the Whoverse inside of a TARDIS. lol

btw... I have seen Mainframes referred to in Traveller, that are niether personal computers or ship computers and I have never seen stats for them. You know the ones I am talking about, the ones they are using to experiment with AI or City Minds, etc. What are they and where can I find more info on them?

This makes Me realize, again, that Traveller really, really needs a rules index, because so much information is randomly spread out in so many different books and locations.

 

[Condottiere]

Greater bandwidth indicates more computation within a given time frame.

So, the question would be, why you couldn't increase that in the form of faster signalling, faster processing, and more random access memory sticks, at each technological level.

Or, less.

 

[phavoc]

It's an interesting question of whether or not it would be a scaled up mainframe or something more like a ship-based cloud computer.

ST:Voyager had an interesting take on it. There were bio-based nodes spread throughout the ship that took care of all the myriad housekeeping and diagnostic efforts ST ships were capable of. The main computer was still pretty sizable, but the processing nodes did much of the actual mundane workings. That freed up the main computer for the heavy lifting computation stuff.

Now exactly how that divide might work for a Traveller ship, and what adding more components could/would do is debatable. Players tend to try and min/max their designs and don't have to pay attention to what all these things combine into.

Somewhere there has to be a relatively arbitrary dividing line so you can fill in the blanks for cost vs capability.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Greater bandwidth indicates more computation within a given time frame.

So, the question would be, why you couldn't increase that in the form of faster signalling, faster processing, and more random access memory sticks, at each technological level.

Or, less.

Or simply adding more computers to share the computational load.

 

[Condottiere]

Apparently, parallelization is prohibited.

At least, on spacecraft.

 

[Geir]

Yeah, Traveller computers exist in the Whoverse inside of a TARDIS. lol

btw... I have seen Mainframes referred to in Traveller, that are niether personal computers or ship computers and I have never seen stats for them. You know the ones I am talking about, the ones they are using to experiment with AI or City Minds, etc. What are they and where can I find more info on them?

This makes Me realize, again, that Traveller really, really needs a rules index, because so much information is randomly spread out in so many different books and locations.

The mainframes of the old type are in the Central Supply Catalogue (2023 version) page 67. I also added a thing for making 'supercomputers' out mainframes or mid-sized computers, where two gives you computer +1, four +2 and eight +3... and etc., at least for midsized. And then add proto and retro rules for even more fun...
Mainframes of the new (future type) are where Core comes in.

But yes, rules are getting rather spread out, so an index would help.

 

[Vormaerin]

There is, fundamentally, no purpose for a game to have 4 or 5 different ways to configure your computer unless they each have some relative advantage for purpose over each other. Which is super hard to actually do. There's almost always gonna be the 'best way' to do it. Because games don't run with the level of granularity that make all those options worth the space they take up. So you write the rules to cover the most generally useful/easiest to play way.

It isn't any different than how they handle guns. There's a lot of 9mm pistols out there with different weights, barrel lengths, magazine sizes, grips, trigger arrangements, and other features. IRL, that stuff makes a difference. At the scale of granularity of the game? No, it doesn't. You have a 9mm autopistol.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There is, fundamentally, no purpose for a game to have 4 or 5 different ways to configure your computer unless they each have some relative advantage for purpose over each other. Which is super hard to actually do. There's almost always gonna be the 'best way' to do it. Because games don't run with the level of granularity that make all those options worth the space they take up. So you write the rules to cover the most generally useful/easiest to play way.

It isn't any different than how they handle guns. There's a lot of 9mm pistols out there with different weights, barrel lengths, magazine sizes, grips, trigger arrangements, and other features. IRL, that stuff makes a difference. At the scale of granularity of the game? No, it doesn't. You have a 9mm autopistol.

Not true as of the new Mongoose book that lets you build custom weapons.

For Computers though, it should just be a case of adding more bandwidth for a price. Keep the Computer bandwidth number as just one thing and increase it based on need.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The mainframes of the old type are in the Central Supply Catalogue (2023 version) page 67. I also added a thing for making 'supercomputers' out mainframes or mid-sized computers, where two gives you computer +1, four +2 and eight +3... and etc., at least for midsized. And then add proto and retro rules for even more fun...
Mainframes of the new (future type) are where Core comes in.

But yes, rules are getting rather spread out, so an index would help.

Yeah, but you don't need free Jump software in a normal mainframe. lol

 

[Geir]

It isn't any different than how they handle guns. There's a lot of 9mm pistols out there with different weights, barrel lengths, magazine sizes, grips, trigger arrangements, and other features. IRL, that stuff makes a difference. At the scale of granularity of the game? No, it doesn't. You have a 9mm autopistol.

Actually, there's a whole Mercenary Field Guide section hat lets you mess with such customizations.
And as a simpler variety I tossed a "Finely Made Weapons" box into the the updated CSC.

 

[agentwigggles]

Its just a odd Traveller thing. It has computers that work like big boxes from colleges from the 70s. But Holograms and stuff.

 

[Vormaerin]

Actually, there's a whole Mercenary Field Guide section hat lets you mess with such customizations.
And as a simpler variety I tossed a "Finely Made Weapons" box into the the updated CSC.

And if someone wants to create a fancy computer customization system that's a ton of work for the players and doesn't play well with the High Guard rules, they can. I just don't see the point.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And if someone wants to create a fancy computer customization system that's a ton of work for the players and doesn't play well with the High Guard rules, they can. I just don't see the point.

I was thinking something simple along the lines of "X cost per point of Bandwidth" and "X tons per point of Bandwidth." On a table that showed the size and size at each Tech Level. Keep it short and simple yet flexible.

The point is simple, military ships in Traveller can never run the software that they would actually have because not enough Bandwidth is available.

 

[MongooseMatt]

This makes Me realize, again, that Traveller really, really needs a rules index, because so much information is randomly spread out in so many different books and locations.

We have been mulling over the idea of the Traveller Rules Compendium...

 

[Vormaerin]

You want to have the ship's computers take up space on the ship? Okay. They used to. Everyone complained how silly it was that they computers were so big. That's how they became integral to all the components of the ship.

That's going have strange effects. Right now, the cost for a Model 1 computer (5 bandwidth) is Cr6000 per point of bandwidth 5. A Model 7 computer (35 bandwidth) costs over Cr850,000 per point of bandwidth. Are you going to say you can have a TL 7 35 bandwidth computer for Cr210,000 or a TL 15 5 bandwidth computer that costs MCr4?