Only 1 Computer?

I'll be the first to admit that I think the Traveller TL system is excessive granular and doesn't make a lot of sense in a setting that claims interstellar trade is as easy as modern intercontinental trade. I only use about 7 TLs personally. "Early space", "standard space", and "advanced space" is granular enough for me. So I would certainly be fine just ditching the TL modifiers in the system completely. But there are quite a few of them in High Guard. Stealth, Missile Tracking, general offensive and defensive DMs, etc.

First, the idea that building something with the functionality of a TL 12 system at a TL 15 shipyard does not mean it its being built using TL 12 methods or even built on that world. They are importing the parts from Space Vietnam or they are fabbing them in their universal widget maker. And they are doing that because this is an imperial standard design that is used across the empire and no one needs to pay for an iphone 10 when all they are doing is making basic phone calls.

Second, this is a game. I like my games to make sense, but I much prefer them to be playable. And tracking the homeworld tech of every free trader and whether it can be repaired at this world or that world is not particularly interesting or fun. Especially since, at worst, it just means I have to pay extra to have the part shipped to where I am.

I want mechanics that make the game more fun. Which is obviously subjective. In this case, I would like the computer thing changed because I think the bandwidth mechanic is overly restrictive (aka unfun) and doesn't make a lot of sense if you dive into it. I do not want to replace it with fire, fusion, and steel where every system in the ship has its own TL table for cost/size/etc. I want a nice easy rating for how sophisticated the overall system of the ship is. And a mechanic that offloads the effects of current software into system upgrades. Similar to how sensors work now.

Sensors are rated by the TL of the ship. And then they have modifiers to that baseline performance. Basic/Civilian/Military/Improved/Advanced and a bunch of other toys you can buy for special options. No software involved (unless you count the space battle EW stuff). That would be my ideal for fire control (which is 90% of the software programs :p) and the autopilot stuff like evade. You have Piloting controls Basic/Civilian/Military/Improved/Advanced with an associated evade or maneuver modifier. Done.

But there's a lot more to the ship that than and I would like a simple system for rating the sophistication of the overall ship's operating system. There's 7 models of computer in the game and there's 7 TLs of space interstellar ships and existing rules for TL differences when doing things like hacking and whatnot. So that seemed like a pretty straightforward way to achieve what I wanted with the benefit of not requiring rewriting all the basic ships out there.

I'm only using TL-equivalency because that's consistent with the existing modifiers and I don't feel inclined to worry about renaming existing modifiers in a brainstorming session.
 
See the TLs were one of the first things that made Me fall in love with Traveller. I loved that I could run a game from the stone age up to the technology of Star Trek and Star Wars if I wanted to. It was the game's inherent flexibility that I loved. In Traveller I could have all sorts of TLs crashing together in an innumerable number of stories. Why? Because there were rules for it. That very granularity, that you dislike because you only use 7 of them and feel like you only need those 7 TLs simplified down to 3 "Tech Eras" I primarily use TLs 1 through 15 because most of the games I run are in the Trojan Reach. Most of the non-aligned worlds there are very interesting to land on and have adventures and their TLs vary wildly. I love that are so many TLs because it is one more way to make each world different, one more way to make each world unique. I like to celebrate the diversity of things while still maintaining something streamlined to be played without a math degree (My major problem with FFS, I have a physics education, not a math degree. lol) I love customization. No two Free Traders should ever be the exactly the same, unless they both just rolled out of the Shipyard. Within 10 years, every Free Trader should have some level of customization that makes it different from every other Free Trader. One of those things is buying spare parts and doing repairs when you have to, not necessarily where you want to. If you are out, where you can't get your annual maintenance done, maybe you have to replace things with substandard (a lower TL) part. It might cost you more as it will basically be a custom-made, reverse-engineered prototype, but it will work. It may also cost you double the maintenance.

All of this should be possible in Traveller, but not all Referees and Players will need this. For them, the rule is simple. Standard designs only and no beyond the base TL Components. That way it is the same game, just with varying levels of detail for those who want it. And just like in a universe with the Jump Drive, you should probably not mix it with a universe with Hyperdrives. Use one or the others, but mixing them will create a recordkeeping imbalance. lol
 
To my mind it is tile to revisit the computer rules.
I would start with tis:
Bandwidth is data transfer rate
Processing is operation per second - running programs
and now the bit people will hate - the computer core should take up space on the ship and so should the network cabling, unless you want totally wireless, which has major security issues, Think of the wiring as the fib designation of yesteryear.
 
I'm apparently doing a terrible job of stating my point. I don't understand how you think anything I said changes anything about the mix of technology levels in the environment or prohibits customizing the ship. I just said they are built to a standard, not that they are immutable. If you don't build it that way, its not the standard and doesn't get the standardization discount :D All the rest of the stuff you mention happens during play.

I never said I only use three tech levels. I'll just clarify this last misunderstanding: I gave an example of 3 of the 7 I use. I don't find that saying this world is TL11 and that world is TL12 tells me anything useful, especially since there is so much trade muddling it up and the rules on TL say its an average, so any given world will have areas they are above or below their expected TL.. I'm going to be hand crafting the world either way.

The full list is
Primitive
Pre Industrial
Industrial
Computer
Early Space
Standard Space
Advanced Space

I don't have anything new to say on the topic and you and I don't seem to be communicating effectively anyway. So I'm glad some folks liked the idea I had, but it's just an idea and I don't expect everyone to like it or like all of it. I'm not in any danger of becoming a rules writer for Mongoose, so you are safe. :D
 
Computational power of a mid Seventies mainframe, versus the computational power of a mid Twenties smart phone.

I think that the iPhone can easily manage to compute a monojump.

The rest, after all, require no bandwidth.
 
Programs and control software...

processor power - limits complexity of programs and number that can be run simultaneously

bandwidth - stuff that requires lots of data back and forth

Mode TL PP BW
ModelTLProcessorBandwidthTonnageCost.
0513
1625
2736
3857
49810
5101312
6122115
7133420
8145525
9157030

Edit 1 - I'm just putting this here while I jot down thoughts.
Processor - number and level of program that can be run eg model 4 comp - 4,4 or 4,3,1 or 8 level 1 programs
Program level can not be greater than model number
There are level 0 programs
Bandwidth - some programs require more data to flow back and forth hence have a bandwidth of 1, 2, 3 or 4.
 
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I'm apparently doing a terrible job of stating my point. I don't understand how you think anything I said changes anything about the mix of technology levels in the environment or prohibits customizing the ship. I just said they are built to a standard, not that they are immutable. If you don't build it that way, its not the standard and doesn't get the standardization discount :D All the rest of the stuff you mention happens during play.

I never said I only use three tech levels. I'll just clarify this last misunderstanding: I gave an example of 3 of the 7 I use. I don't find that saying this world is TL11 and that world is TL12 tells me anything useful, especially since there is so much trade muddling it up and the rules on TL say its an average, so any given world will have areas they are above or below their expected TL.. I'm going to be hand crafting the world either way.

The full list is
Primitive
Pre Industrial
Industrial
Computer
Early Space
Standard Space
Advanced Space

I don't have anything new to say on the topic and you and I don't seem to be communicating effectively anyway. So I'm glad some folks liked the idea I had, but it's just an idea and I don't expect everyone to like it or like all of it. I'm not in any danger of becoming a rules writer for Mongoose, so you are safe. :D
I never said that they were immutable currently. I gave that as an example of how if My ideas were implemented, it would not effect your style of gameplay. Just like the optional rules now that We have in books like the Traveller Companion. Some of the stuff in there, I love, some I pretend it was never written. Since they are all option rules, that is easy to do. That is all that I am saying here.

Tech Level is one of the simplest and easiest to understand concepts in the game. The TL of a world is the TL of 90% of its population. (or it is supposed to be, but then the writers do things like Cordan, where the Population Code of the Mainworld does not refer to the actual population of the world, but only the population of the Baronial Households, which are the minority of the actual population of Cordan. When the writers wrote that, they broke their own rules for how TL functions. The majority population on Cordan is TL-2.) Out in rural areas you may find up to 2 TLs lower. In the upper echelons of wealth or power you will likely find things from 1 or 2 TLs higher.

I suppose that, yes, you could build a TL-1 knife as a TL-1 knife creating it by forging it by hand. That would be a TL-1 knife, but you could also 3D print a knife at TL-8 with all of the same materials and capabilities. So is the 3D printed knife TL-1 or TL-8? If a 3D printed knife counts as TL-1, then you are correct and base TL is the only thing that matters. If not, it opens up a world of possibilities.

I know that the Imperium has their thing that lists the designs and tolerances of pretty much every conceivable part that the Imperium uses on its Starports, space stations, ships, guns, armor, bolts, screws, etc., but the Free Trader isn't Imperium-made, so are Free Traders and their parts covered by this Official Parts Catalog? When Traveller first came up with this idea for the Imperium, almost everything was defined differently by the rules. For example, Jump and Maneuver Engines. Originally, they were not infinitely customizable in their sizes. They were set sizes based on capability and Hull Size. Hull Sizes were also set numbers. You could have a 200-ton hull, but not a 204-ton hull. The Standard Designs are based off of that, which no longer exists in Our ruleset. So unless the Imperium defines every bolt of every different ship in Charted Space, that standardization discounted can not apply to ships not built by the Imperium.

Is there a "standard design" for Aslan ships? Each Clan does things differently. So I would say that, no, there isn't, but I am aware of no rule that specifically says that. If this is true, then Our design rules need to allow for that and they currently do not.

We can start asking Ourselves questions about how computers and bandwidth work, but that will ultimately bring Us around to discussing other issues that are related, such as what TL actually means or is the Imperium's standardization practices function outside of the Imperium or on things that are not built by the Imperium. The rules for non-SPA Starports are vastly different from the rules for SPA Starports. You can have a TL-6 non-SPA Starport, but if your Starport is controlled by the SPA, is is minimum TL-12.

We can also end up talking about Trade Routes and how they are defined, created, and the level of traffic that they have using them. Or what it means to have a Class-B Starport. (Geir has done well helping to further define Starports, even if he and I disagree on a few points. Geir's writing has vastly improved My gaming experience.) All of this is tied to TL as well. Such as, what is the TL of an Advanced Manufacturing Plant? TL-10? Why? What does that mean? A Basic Manufacturing Plant can build Common Electronics. Common Electronics are up to TL-10. A Basic Manufacturing Plant is TL-7. How does a TL-7 plant put out TL-10 goods? How about an Advanced Manufacturing Plant? High Guard says that it is TL-10, but can build Advanced Electronics up to TL-15. How? (maybe Geir can explain this, because I am stumped.)

These are the things that drive Me crazy. One thing always leads to another thing and none of the things seem to actually work together to make sense. Sadly, all of this came from Me trying to make sense of Bandwidth and computers...lol...

Wow! That went way longer and way further afield than I intended it to. Sorry guys. :(
 
As someone who once chewed on ARCNET cables, I think we can all agree that Traveller "Bandwidth" means simultaneous processing capability. I don't let that bother me, after all, a "Computer" used to be a person, not a machine (as late as the Fifties - definitely before my time). The way in which Computers are implemented works well within the concept of the game, and given the looseness of mapping items such airlocks, offices, and other components (in this version, not T5, for instance) the fact that computers don't take up space doesn't bother me (if the ship has a bridge - if all it has is a cockpit, then I might have issues, but the 'bridge' in my opinion encompasses things like an office, computers, and at least one airlock a ship's locker - but that's just my opinion, it's not written down).

The 'robot hack' for a fire control system only works one gunner at a time, so if you want to replace all your gunners with robots, you need a lot of fire control boxes. There are ship-wide effects like Advanced Fire Control that speak to central control, so I think there is still a need for a central computer concept, and here, it may not be unreasonable to require the same system (as in every big-C Computer is a Core Computer) be scaled up to simultaneously manage and support ship-wide functions over a shared infrastructure. So I see a place both for the distributed model to fit with specific systems (as in: if a robot can replace the crew doing this, so can a box of electronics) and the central core.

And again, I'm just some iron age dude trying to build a rocket ship*

*Roman Senator method for building rocket ships:
1. Find the land of the rocket ship builders
2. Conquer them with your legions
3. Enslave their artisans
4. Bring them back to Rome to build your rocket ships
5. Don't bother me with the details, this way has always worked in the past
 
2300 has a /tar designation, so you can have a separate Targeting Computer to run shipwide software to improve the performance of the fire direction hardware. Fire directors are a separate piece of hardware from the turret. Traveller technically does as well, but it merges it with the Turret. In CT times, you had to pay for hardpoints and it generally referred to space set aside for a future turret as being "designated for the fire control system".

Target Tracking Arrays are a centralized fire control system that fires all the weapons as a battery against one target. It's the lower tech, cheap system. The Unified Tracking and Engagement System is a higher tech, more expensive system that puts a separate fire control director at each turret.

T5 distinguishes between the computer, which can perform tasks on its own, and consoles, which can't. Essentially, the computer's rating is the number of virtual crew is counts as, as far as I can determine. :p
 
As someone who once chewed on ARCNET cables, I think we can all agree that Traveller "Bandwidth" means simultaneous processing capability. I don't let that bother me, after all, a "Computer" used to be a person, not a machine (as late as the Fifties - definitely before my time). The way in which Computers are implemented works well within the concept of the game, and given the looseness of mapping items such airlocks, offices, and other components (in this version, not T5, for instance) the fact that computers don't take up space doesn't bother me (if the ship has a bridge - if all it has is a cockpit, then I might have issues, but the 'bridge' in my opinion encompasses things like an office, computers, and at least one airlock a ship's locker - but that's just my opinion, it's not written down).

The 'robot hack' for a fire control system only works one gunner at a time, so if you want to replace all your gunners with robots, you need a lot of fire control boxes. There are ship-wide effects like Advanced Fire Control that speak to central control, so I think there is still a need for a central computer concept, and here, it may not be unreasonable to require the same system (as in every big-C Computer is a Core Computer) be scaled up to simultaneously manage and support ship-wide functions over a shared infrastructure. So I see a place both for the distributed model to fit with specific systems (as in: if a robot can replace the crew doing this, so can a box of electronics) and the central core.

And again, I'm just some iron age dude trying to build a rocket ship*

*Roman Senator method for building rocket ships:
1. Find the land of the rocket ship builders
2. Conquer them with your legions
3. Enslave their artisans
4. Bring them back to Rome to build your rocket ships
5. Don't bother me with the details, this way has always worked in the past
If you write it, I am sure that I will like at least parts of it. lol

I hurt Myself laughing at the Roman Senator thing... lmao
 
Tech Level is one of the simplest and easiest to understand concepts in the game. The TL of a world is the TL of 90% of its population. (or it is supposed to be, but then the writers do things like Cordan, where the Population Code of the Mainworld does not refer to the actual population of the world, but only the population of the Baronial Households, which are the minority of the actual population of Cordan. When the writers wrote that, they broke their own rules for how TL functions. The majority population on Cordan is TL-2.) Out in rural areas you may find up to 2 TLs lower. In the upper echelons of wealth or power you will likely find things from 1 or 2 TLs higher.

I suppose that, yes, you could build a TL-1 knife as a TL-1 knife creating it by forging it by hand. That would be a TL-1 knife, but you could also 3D print a knife at TL-8 with all of the same materials and capabilities. So is the 3D printed knife TL-1 or TL-8? If a 3D printed knife counts as TL-1, then you are correct and base TL is the only thing that matters. If not, it opens up a world of possibilities.

:(
TL is not actually that simple. TL gives you the approximate level of what is available to the general populace, true. But that's the average across all technologies. They might be significantly better that the listed TL in medical care and worse in power generation. Modern Earth is TL 8 is some categories (like medicine, electronics) but only TL7 for space, environment, power generation, and gravitics. Maybe you can look at the UWP and see TL 7 on one planet and TL8 on the neighboring planet and go "aha!" and know how that looks. Maybe I need glasses, but that's just too fuzzy to serve a purpose for me. :p

Amusingly, on your knife example, it is specifically discussed:

"For many items, improvements in technology have only cosmetic effects; a TL9 dagger might be made of better metal, become rust-proof and possibly self-sharpening but it still has approximately the same mass, cost and damage potential as the TL1 version. It may become superseded by a monoblade or a laser scalpel at higher Tech Levels but may still be available in its basic form even at TL15.

Other items may go through a period of development affecting cost, mass and features. These items are normally represented by separate entries for gradations as fine as Basic, Improved, Enhanced, Advanced and Superior, although often only three or less of these will apply."

Also, "Standard Design" is a specific term. Ships that are standard designs get a 10% cost reduction if they are built to that spec with only cosmetic changes. If you look at the stat sheet for the Beowulf class Free Trader, you see its component parts cost MCr51, but the purchase price ins MCr46 But the Type AA "Armed Trader", which is a variant design, has the same MCr57 for component cost and purchase price.

There's lots of different "Free traders" in the sense of Jump 1 200 dton freighters. But every shipyard in the Imperium can and probably has built the Beowulf type to that spec and you don't need to pay a naval architect for the design plans.
 
If you can specialize computers for jumping, you can specialize them for any other shipboard function.

However, only one computer can be operating at any one time, in any particular network.
 
That is why the index book that Geir and I were talking about should be a pdf that can be updated. Updated PDFs are one of My favorite things about Mongoose right now since most of My collection is electronic. My books hate tropical island weather without air conditioning.

I like that as Mongoose find issues in their previous books, they can change the pdf, fix it, and focus most of their attention on writing new material for Us to drool over. :)

(Geir - I am still waiting for the colony management part of the World Tamer's Handbook that didn't make the transfer to your Worldbuilder's book. lol! )
See when most people talk about a rules compendium or consultation what they are talking about is a new rule book that bring all the rules into a single book. This is exactly what my post was about. Now as for doing such a thing as a PDF that can be updated you have another problem with that such a PDF would discourage buying of new products especially in a game like Traveller where many of the books are system heavy. Example why buy the field guide when you get the rules with you compendium PDF it’s simply not practical on the business side.

Now a PDF index that tells you what book and page the rule is at I can agree with but keeping something like that updated can be a resource drain in itself. How much details do you put into the index is the Field Guide 40 entries or 4 for example. And you have to be consistent with how. You break things down.

To summarize I think a Rules Compendium would be a mistake and actually counterproductive but a rule index could be useful if handled right.
 
See when most people talk about a rules compendium or consultation what they are talking about is a new rule book that bring all the rules into a single book. This is exactly what my post was about. Now as for doing such a thing as a PDF that can be updated you have another problem with that such a PDF would discourage buying of new products especially in a game like Traveller where many of the books are system heavy. Example why buy the field guide when you get the rules with you compendium PDF it’s simply not practical on the business side.

Now a PDF index that tells you what book and page the rule is at I can agree with but keeping something like that updated can be a resource drain in itself. How much details do you put into the index is the Field Guide 40 entries or 4 for example. And you have to be consistent with how. You break things down.

To summarize I think a Rules Compendium would be a mistake and actually counterproductive but a rule index could be useful if handled right.
Agreed. I have the books I need and if the new index points to something I don't have, then I know what I need to get. A comprehensive index is where we need to be aiming, I think. When new stuff comes out, part of the process should be to compile the index additions, and when layout is complete and you are confident that you have the right page numbers, set that partial index document aside and wait for the new book to go live and update the comprehensive index at the same time.
 
An index needs minimal resources.

Even if the editor gets it wrong, some poster will be happy to correct him.
The problem with that is than everyone will complain about the bad editing for all of mongoose products even if it’s not true. Better to do the job right than to lose the goodwill of the customers.
 
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