Not Another White Star Thread (TM)

[Da Boss]

Maybe - could work -

or it could be the warrior caste don't like taking orders from non warrior caste....................

 

[AdrianH]

Shadow Scout - it already has 8" guns -its very good - but as its the only ship choice below battle - reducing its effectiveness is not i feel a good idea. The new Accurate AF beam is likely to be a problem as well for the White Stars.

note I am concerned that the new White Star will suffer very badly against certain fleets (Centauri, Pak, Gaim and Shadows)

I don't see why the Accurate AF system is such a problem for White Stars. OK, so the White Star can't dodge it, but it only hits half the time anyway being a mini-beam, so it scores about as many hits on average as a full beam. It isn't multiple damage and now it isn't precise either. So a Shadow ship being swarmed by White Stars can either pick on one, give it a full strength zap, and have a reasonable chance of a critical; or it can use AF mode, do less damage and have less chance of a critical. Unless the Shadow managed to lose initiative, AF isn't going to be an issue.

As for the range change, anything bigger than a Scout can match or outrange the original White Star laser anyway, and the White Star really needs to use everything it has in order to take down the Shadow's shields and do damage. And now it doesn't lose an AD from its laser while doing so.

Against Scouts, the long range of the original laser didn't help the White Stars I faced in two tournament battles during B5 Open Day. A Scout can go from outside laser range to within range of its own gun in one double-speed move. And long range does nothing if the scenario lets the Scouts start in hyperspace. :twisted:

 

[mollari_uk]

but if those allies are highly trained minbari why would they drag the initiative down? how about lowest init, so IF you took pak, you'd be a bit boned, but taking Minbari would be ok as they too are highly drilled.

Because mixing forces means more coordination problems. It's not just experience but communication issues too.

I like the initiative rule. It would stop allies being a no-brainer.

 

[Da Boss]

Shadow Scout - it already has 8" guns -its very good - but as its the only ship choice below battle - reducing its effectiveness is not i feel a good idea. The new Accurate AF beam is likely to be a problem as well for the White Stars.

note I am concerned that the new White Star will suffer very badly against certain fleets (Centauri, Pak, Gaim and Shadows)

I don't see why the Accurate AF system is such a problem for White Stars. OK, so the White Star can't dodge it, but it only hits half the time anyway being a mini-beam, so it scores about as many hits on average as a full beam. It isn't multiple damage and now it isn't precise either. So a Shadow ship being swarmed by White Stars can either pick on one, give it a full strength zap, and have a reasonable chance of a critical; or it can use AF mode, do less damage and have less chance of a critical. Unless the Shadow managed to lose initiative, AF isn't going to be an issue.

As for the range change, anything bigger than a Scout can match or outrange the original White Star laser anyway, and the White Star really needs to use everything it has in order to take down the Shadow's shields and do damage. And now it doesn't lose an AD from its laser while doing so.

Against Scouts, the long range of the original laser didn't help the White Stars I faced in two tournament battles during B5 Open Day. A Scout can go from outside laser range to within range of its own gun in one double-speed move. And long range does nothing if the scenario lets the Scouts start in hyperspace. :twisted:

The accurate AF beam is massively useful for when the pesky White Stars or indeed other fast agile ships use their numbers to get behind a Shadow ship - now it can fire back :twisted:

 

[AdrianH]

If the Shadows win initiative, which they usually do against White Stars, the big ship will be able to get one of them in its front arc.

If they don't, 6 mini-beams will average 3 hits, adaptive armour takes that down to 1, self-repair takes care of that. The White Star loses 1 crew. And if it's unlucky, it takes a critical. If that's enough to scare the White Star, it may as well stay at home because it's going to receive a lot worse if it goes behind just about anyone else's War level ship.

 

[Methos5000]

awhile back we someone did a comparison between the White Star and a Shadow Scout. The White Star still outclassed a Scout. Also, the ISA can take allies to shore up every hole they have. Shadows still dont have a skirmish ship so I would say balance is there and quite honestly ISA with Allies is still the most abusable fleet in the game.

This depends heavily on who they are fighting. If they are fighting against each other I would put my money on the shadow scout 90% of the time.

As to some of the other things mentioned:
-I would gladly give up the +1CQ for a higher Initiative. An Intiative of +4 means that I get a better chance of reacting to my opponents movements instead of them reacting to mine. Plus SA could be adjusted much easier without having to factor in some races getting them easier. (In my opinions the pak'ma'ra should lose their -1 CQ also, they are already penalized with the lowest Init. and this just makes it easier for for other races to win opposed checks.

-Allies: This has been one of the biggest sore points for most people, the combinations of WS with certain allies can make for a rather over the top army. I think the allies list could be shortened. I would be fine with something like a reverse AoL list (Larger pure ISA force with limited allies chosen from the AoL list, something like that), or perhaps even better a list of ships that can be used as allies instead of full fleet lists. Or the ultimate extreme, drop allies and have several hand picked ships added to the fleet as ISA variants (like the Tara'lin is a Shar'lin variant). Though to be honest I rarely use allies so reducing allies doesn't really impact me.

-New 'Knife fight' WS: It is good to see that the PTB listened and gave us a much more viable 'nerf' then the previous one. Full playtesting will determine how viable it is against 'troublesome' races for the ISA and if it helps at all against races that have had trouble facing the ISA.

 

[Foxmeister]

If they don't, 6 mini-beams will average 3 hits, adaptive armour takes that down to 1, self-repair takes care of that. The White Star loses 1 crew. And if it's unlucky, it takes a critical.

My initial thoughts on the knife-fight White Star is that playtesting will probably highlight a need for a higher crew score - possibly somewhere in the 18 to 20 region.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Triggy]

The ISA fleet isn't that big, but then neither is the Vorlon, Pak, Shadow, ipsha or hurr fleet. but again, ALLIES! sure only 1FAP, but thats 1 FAP of about 30 different ships (probably more in fact)

as an addition to this post, "maybe" we could see old minbari ships re-statted to join the ISA, after all we have the nolotar (admitedly not in the minbari fleet any more) the tara lin, Nials. so how about a tinashi varient, after all, it's a pretty old ship design?

look, see, I can be reasonable, i' advocating a new ship for ISA thats not WS based!! ;-)

What we really want to see is the Valen from TLT and from LotR (two different ships at Raid and Battle PL) appearing. This may happen once miniature design kicks in again. Then the ISA would have a non-WS/BS option from their own list at every PL except Patrol.

 

[H]

although both ships were allegedly diplomatic transports, and really, lets face it, the valen from lotr was about as solid as vir! the valen from tlt at least looked pretty cool.

but what I REALLY want to see, is a decent G'Quan ;-) oh you walked into that one, yes you did!

do you have any relatives in newton le willows? saw a guy on the train and immediatly thought, wow, chubby Triggy!

 

[H]

ok, thisisn't a valen, as we have no model, but one thing we said was the ISa having it's OWN ships to choose from, so as an alternative to the whitestar, i have.... draft1... please openly discuss and be honest, I can't get ship viewers up here, so very resticted in what i can and can't do. . .

Ashina-Lin-class Medium Destroyer (Tinashi Variant) Raid

With the ISA fleet becoming stretched due to the limited number of Whitestars, and a reluctance of many allied fleets to send their best ships, John Sheridan approached the Minbari with a request for a medium sized vessel that could hold the line, allowing the Whitestars to outflank an enemy. This ship would be the anvil to the Whitestars hammer. Ever reluctant to share technology with the humans, the Warrior caste eventually relented and provided a number of old Tinashi hulls for re-fitting. Stripped of it’s active stealth systems, the graceful design still retains it’s natural stealthy profile to some extent.

Speed: 12
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 5
Damage: 38/12
Crew: 42/14
Troops: 2
Craft: 2 Shial
Special Rules: Advanced Anti-Fighter 2, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Stealth 3+
In Service: 2272+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Neutron Laser 20 F 3 Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Fusion Cannon 18 F 6 Mini-Beam
Fusion Cannon 18 P 4 Mini-Beam
Fusion Cannon 18 S 4 Mini-Beam

I did want to drop the minibeams for molecular disruptors, but wondered if this would promote a sniping approach, I don't actually think it would as this ship isn't maneuvreable enough to sit back in a weak arc, so draft 2 becomes. . .

Ashina-Lin-class Medium Destroyer (Tinashi Variant) Raid

With the ISA fleet becoming stretched due to the limited number of Whitestars, and a reluctance of many allied fleets to send their best ships, John Sheridan approached the Minbari with a request for a medium sized vessel that could hold the line, allowing the Whitestars to outflank an enemy. This ship would be the anvil to the Whitestars hammer. Ever reluctant to share technology with the humans, the Warrior caste eventually relented and provided a number of old Tinashi hulls for re-fitting. Stripped of it’s active stealth systems, the graceful design still retains it’s natural stealthy profile to some extent.

Speed: 12
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 5
Damage: 38/12
Crew: 42/14
Troops: 2
Craft: 2 Shial
Special Rules: Advanced Anti-Fighter 2, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Stealth 3+
In Service: 2272+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Neutron Laser 20 F 3 Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Advanced Molecular Disruptor 16 F 5 SAP, Double Damage, Precise
Molecular Disruptor 8 P 3 AP, Double Damage, Precise
Molecular Disruptor 8 S 3 AP, Double Damage, Precise


this ship looses some firepower to the Tigara, but is tougher, that said lower stealth, hard to balance this thats for sure. . .

 

[Da Boss]

I like the idea - a few more of these and no need for a allies list

and maybe even a chance of a new Shadow vessel

"approached the Minbari with a request for a medium sized vessel that could hold the line, allowing the Whitestars to outflank an enemy."

Perhaps he might have gone to the Narn (or G'kar sorted some out) to buy some of their older T'loth hulls (make a good battle level carrier / command cruiser - probably good for entended tours of duty) or G'Quon hulls - give it ISA tech and make a decent raid level ship out of it to do the above?

 

[Da Boss]

ok, thisisn't a valen, as we have no model, but one thing we said was the ISa having it's OWN ships to choose from, so as an alternative to the whitestar, i have.... draft1... please openly discuss and be honest, I can't get ship viewers up here, so very resticted in what i can and can't do. . .
Ashina-Lin-class Medium Destroyer (Tinashi Variant) Raid

With the ISA fleet becoming stretched due to the limited number of Whitestars, and a reluctance of many allied fleets to send their best ships, John Sheridan approached the Minbari with a request for a medium sized vessel that could hold the line, allowing the Whitestars to outflank an enemy. This ship would be the anvil to the Whitestars hammer. Ever reluctant to share technology with the humans, the Warrior caste eventually relented and provided a number of old Tinashi hulls for re-fitting. Stripped of it’s active stealth systems, the graceful design still retains it’s natural stealthy profile to some extent.

Speed: 12
Turn: 2/45o
Hull: 5
Damage: 38/12
Crew: 42/14
Troops: 2
Craft: 2 Shial
Special Rules: Advanced Anti-Fighter 2, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Stealth 3+
In Service: 2272+

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Neutron Laser 20 F 3 Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Advanced Molecular Disruptor 16 F 5 SAP, Double Damage, Precise
Molecular Disruptor 8 P 3 AP, Double Damage, Precise
Molecular Disruptor 8 S 3 AP, Double Damage, Precise


this ship looses some firepower to the Tigara, but is tougher, that said lower stealth, hard to balance this thats for sure. . .

Its a big Raid ship (although Hull 5) - It also has two good fighters over the Minbari ships as well.

I do like this version more - the other is too Minbari, this has its own charm. I'd maybe drop the beam and increase the AMD (maybe change the name to Heavy - I like the idea the Warrior Caste are dumping older wepaons on the ISA rather than new tech) AD to say 8-10 and round up the side MD's to 4 AD.

 

[H]

yeah, I thought dropping the minibeams and using less fancied weapons would fit a disgruntled warriorcaste quartermaster ;-)

can get some tweaks done. I gave it the fighters as an afterthought, no reason not to drop them.

 

[Da Boss]

yeah, I thought dropping the minibeams and using less fancied weapons would fit a disgruntled warriorcaste quartermaster ;-)

can get some tweaks done. I gave it the fighters as an afterthought, no reason not to drop them.

Keep the fighters - its both different from the Minbari and a rescource the ISA need.

:idea:

Someone could write a small "Ships of the ISA" supplement - maybe a few classes and 3 or 4 unique ships........................few nice pics - make a nice resource and alternative for people to play with.

 

[Juzza]

I'm all for new ISA ships rather then allies how this for a new ISA ship

Alpha hyperion advance crusier (hyperion variant)

PL / battle
troops 3
craft -
speed 8
turns 2/45
hull 5

special rules : anti figter 2 / interceptors 3 / jump engine / adaptive armour
self repair 2
damage 28/6 crew 32/6
weapon range arc ad special
advance neutron laser 18 b 4 TD/P/beam
molecular pulsar 12 f 6 a/ap/dd
molecular pulsar 12 p 8 a/ap/dd
molecular pulsar 12 s 8 a/ap/dd
molecular pulsar 12 a 6 a/ap/dd
advance neutron laser 18 B(a) 2 TD/P/beam

basically its just a hyperion kitted out in ISA tech. ISA weapons and modifyed hull. I dunno if this fits in fluff wise but it would be cool

 

[Banichi]

Own up, you just want an excuse to play with my hyperion minies. :wink:

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I could maybe see them trying something not too dissimilar as part of experiments on combining earth/minbari/vorlon tech before building the Victory class. I couldn't really see more than one or two such test vessels being built though.

Personally, I'd like to see a couple of additions to the Victory family (as in earth/minbari/vorlon combos) in the same way that the White Star has spawned a whole family from Blue Star up to White Star Carrier.
Another option would be to see a ship or two that throws in the tech of a different ISA member. I would say Narn, but the only contribution I can see from them would be emines. I can hear the screams already regarding the ISA getting blast weapons...

 

[Ike]

I would say Narn, but the only contribution I can see from them would be emines.

and handy dandy bricks cant forget those

 

[Methos5000]

I'm all for new ISA ships rather then allies how this for a new ISA ship

Alpha hyperion advance crusier (hyperion variant)

PL / battle
troops 3
craft -
speed 8
turns 2/45
hull 5

special rules : anti figter 2 / interceptors 3 / jump engine / adaptive armour
self repair 2
damage 28/6 crew 32/6
weapon range arc ad special
advance neutron laser 18 b 4 TD/P/beam
molecular pulsar 12 f 6 a/ap/dd
molecular pulsar 12 p 8 a/ap/dd
molecular pulsar 12 s 8 a/ap/dd
molecular pulsar 12 a 6 a/ap/dd
advance neutron laser 18 B(a) 2 TD/P/beam

basically its just a hyperion kitted out in ISA tech. ISA weapons and modifyed hull. I dunno if this fits in fluff wise but it would be cool

Its not a bad idea in concept, I dont think it should have Adaptive Armor though, you could increase its Damage and Crew and give it the fluff reason of some advanced armor alloys(different from the armor on the Victory class as that is probably very expensive to manufacture) were installed around critical equipment and crew compartments but since it also has SR it implies that its using the Vorlon version of AA which should be in very short supply (despite the millions of WS type variants out there) and probably would not be put on an old EA hull. In my opinion the ISA's AA shouldn't be added to existing ships and be limited to 'unique' ISA designs (WS/Victory/BS ships that are ISA only)

That said I like the idea of allied variants for the ISA instead of a general pick and choose allies list. The Tara'Lin is a good example of a ISA variant Shar'Lin. Given the Narns heavy support of the ISA it would be nice to have maybe a G'Quon variant or as mentioned a T'Loth variant.

 

[Juzza]

Own up, you just want an excuse to play with my hyperion minies. :wink:

Yeah next game i wanna give em a go time for a change i think gets a bit boring playing ISA every game

I was thinking of how psi corps combine shadow tech with earth tech and put out some decent ships and ISA could do somthing similiar. maybe not with the show but at least it would be good for an ISA player to have something other then a white star or similiar to play with