Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Book and page number, or it didn't happen.
(It didn't happen)
Energy weapon bays were specifically limited to plasma and fusion.
No Laser Bays?
- Thread starter tytalan
- Start date
(It didn't happen)
Energy weapon bays were specifically limited to plasma and fusion.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
With respect, we are on the Mongoose site playing Mongoose Traveller. While neither answer is wrong, depending on the ruleset you paly with, the most current source material most of us are using indicates there are 12 missiles (although the scaling from Med to LG makes no sense). And I remember using twelve missiles in the eighties for FASA's Chamaeleon Commerce Raider, but I can't find or remember where we found or arrived at that number.
So if the rules you play with say 25, go for it. 12 missiles against adventure class ships has plenty of pucker factor.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Mongoose authors had a habit of changing things because they have not read sufficient CT canon - the number of launchers I quoted is found in Striker book 2. Things are definitely better recently but there are errors carried forward from 1e.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
He's either got me on ignore or is just deliberately blanking my posts on this subject.
CT->MT has no laser bays.
Arkathan
Emperor Mongoose
Knew that, but that isn't where we got it from. At one point back then I house ruled armor and hit locations based on angle of attack and the deck plans of each ship, and that alternate system MAY have been the culprit - but that was longer ago than I have been married...
We used Striker only for ground and maybe shipboard in a limited fashion. I never had those books.
He does seem pretty snippy and quick to conflate disagreement and correction with attacks. This seems to be a common problem with the segments of recent generations who have been indoctrinated into the theory that anything you disagree with is a micro-aggression and that micro-aggressions are personal attacks that can and should be met with physical violence... and that said violent reactions are actually peaceful protests.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I don't attack anyone. If I upset someone I apologise.
You appear to have a hard time accepting criticism.
As to the canon argument what is canon for the OTU is not the same as what is canon for CT, and then you have MT, GT, T20, MgT, T5, the GTATU and the MgT ATU.
I go with CT as a primary source, especially if a later author gets something mixed up or in error.
MgT is canon for MgT and the MgT ATU, but there are considerable differences between the OTU first described using CT rules (although not always as written) and the MgT ATU.
Mongoose have an excellent book on the history of Traveller - I can't recommend it highly enough.
Back to your post - you claimed MT was at fault because it doesn't have laser bays that you misremember as being part of CT and MT. In the nicest possible way, you are misremembering.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Unless a one tonne turret is the TARDIS, I rather doubt it has place for a workstation, three weapon systems, in this case launchers, possibly four, and twelve to sixteen missiles at ready.
Possibly, another three or four in the launchers.
And I thought it was twenty missiles per tonne, prehistorically.
Possibly, another three or four in the launchers.
And I thought it was twenty missiles per tonne, prehistorically.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
You thought wrong. It is 3, 6 or 9 (perhaps 12 now we have quad turrets) with 12 spares in the turret. fire control space.
I posted the actual text.
The Hellfire missile AGM-114 is a 49kg missile. It has a volume of 0.041 cubic metres.
A triple launcher would need 0.369 cubic metres for the missiles. Lets double it to account for the launch rails and reload mechanism 0.738 cubic metres. The 12 spare missiles take up 0.492 cubic metres, lets double it for storage, 0.984cubic metres.
Turrets have no volume, but the fire control allocation is 1 displacement ton, 14 cubic metres. Plenty of room.
I posted the actual text.
The Hellfire missile AGM-114 is a 49kg missile. It has a volume of 0.041 cubic metres.
A triple launcher would need 0.369 cubic metres for the missiles. Lets double it to account for the launch rails and reload mechanism 0.738 cubic metres. The 12 spare missiles take up 0.492 cubic metres, lets double it for storage, 0.984cubic metres.
Turrets have no volume, but the fire control allocation is 1 displacement ton, 14 cubic metres. Plenty of room.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Oh, I get it.
Turrets are virtual, like fixed mounts.
Turrets are virtual, like fixed mounts.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, the folks that wrote GURPS Traveller Starships really struggled with these "virtual turrets" lol.
In CT 77 fire control was adjacent to the bridge, but then deckplans started putting workstations in turret blisters (Star Wars influence most likely)
By HG fire control had disappeared as a component and instead turrets etc were given displacement tonnage costs of 1, 2 or 3 tons with the 5 ton PAWs barbette (aside - why oh why have the Mongoose authors persisted with the erroneous requirement of 1t of fire control for a bay weapon? The bay has the fire control as part of its tonnage)
The 1 ton turret still came in single double and triple mount capacity for l-s-m , the 2 ton turret can be single or double mount for energy weapons, while the 3 and 5 are PAWs only.
I wrote rules once for CT Heavy Turrets (the 2 ton ones) being able to mount more l-s-m - 6 slots available so 6 lasers etc, extra heavy turrets (the 3 ton ones) with 9 slots so 9 lasers etc, and of course the 15 laser barbette (or other combo of l-s-m-e)
In CT 77 fire control was adjacent to the bridge, but then deckplans started putting workstations in turret blisters (Star Wars influence most likely)
By HG fire control had disappeared as a component and instead turrets etc were given displacement tonnage costs of 1, 2 or 3 tons with the 5 ton PAWs barbette (aside - why oh why have the Mongoose authors persisted with the erroneous requirement of 1t of fire control for a bay weapon? The bay has the fire control as part of its tonnage)
The 1 ton turret still came in single double and triple mount capacity for l-s-m , the 2 ton turret can be single or double mount for energy weapons, while the 3 and 5 are PAWs only.
I wrote rules once for CT Heavy Turrets (the 2 ton ones) being able to mount more l-s-m - 6 slots available so 6 lasers etc, extra heavy turrets (the 3 ton ones) with 9 slots so 9 lasers etc, and of course the 15 laser barbette (or other combo of l-s-m-e)
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
But weren't missiles weighing in at fifty kilogrammes, like sand canisters, prehistorically?
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
Yes, that is why I used the 49 kg AGM- 114 Hellfire to get the dimensions.
Note that if you go with 1 displacement ton is limited to 1000kg then the most you can have is 20 50kg missiles per displacement ton.
But as soon as you remove that restriction 14 cubic metres can hold 341 of the 0.041 cubic metre missiles.
Note that if you go with 1 displacement ton is limited to 1000kg then the most you can have is 20 50kg missiles per displacement ton.
But as soon as you remove that restriction 14 cubic metres can hold 341 of the 0.041 cubic metre missiles.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
Fire control as a separate component for bay weapons was gone in the Mongoose 2nd edition High Guard.
We do listen
I'm pretty new to Traveller so I'm coming at it from an outsider's perspective rather than established canon, but the Hellfire does not strike me as a good comparison to an anti-ship weapon.
If you look at Earth anti-ship missiles, you have the Granit (7,000 kg, roughly 5,67 cubic metres of volume) at the upper end, or pretty much at the lowest end the Sea Skua (145 kg, roughly 0,12 cubic metres). The latter has an absolutely pathetic range and warhead.
Traveller ships are very large, with 200 dtons being fairly comparable to the smallest WW2 escort destroyers. That's a lot of ship to meaningfully damage with a Hellfire! And, of course, the ranges in Traveller, while comically short for actual space combat, are huge compared to modern missiles. That takes a lot of propellant.
If we go with 12 missiles to a dton and figure out what size missile we could get, we're a little short of a Tomahawk (1,300 kg, though volume differs depending on if you count the booster or not). It has respectable range, a respectable conventional or small nuclear warhead - thus it seems like a pretty reasonable analogue to Traveller missiles.
collins355
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes, things changed in TNE, but that change doesn't seem to have stuck. 50kg ship combat missiles with HEAP warheads is pretty laughable.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
If you can only seat four people on a bench for one ton, you can't expect a dozen missiles to be bigger than four people by much. Denser, maybe, but bigger, no. I made the missile the equivalent of a size 4 robot, so a half-person sized, (Yes, that would be 8 in a ton, but missiles don't need chairs. Or leg room. But they also occupy that ton alongside 1-3 missile racks and the turret mechanism (and possible a laser and 20 sand canisters, too.. but what do you want? Consistency?)
(This is what happens when I have to commute to the office and stay there all day like in the Before Times (didn't even get a lunch break (yes, I hear the tiny violins). Too much stuff to catch up on and randomly brain dump back. Luckily that shouldn't be more than once or twice a month...)
