New Runequest - what to expect

[Urox]

If MRQ is like HQ, it will fail miserably. RQ fans want RQ, and HQ fans alreadly have HQ. So a RQ that is too much like HHQ isn't going to sell to either group.

I will go out on a limb here and call HW/HQ a failure. My local FLGS doesn't even stock it. I suspect that the majority of the sales have been to old RQ/Glorantha fans who want the source material but can't stomach playing the game (to which I'd add that it's generally some of the poorest Gloranthan material with a few exceptions).

I give MRQ about a 33% chance of success, with success defined as publishing at least 1 suppliment per quarter 3 years from now. I think it really depends on the quality of the Gloranthan material they put out -- I would hazzard a guess that products like Runes of Chaos won't become a classic like Apple Lane or Snakepipe Hollow.

Back to the initial topic: What to expect?

There will hopefully be some interesting new-ish magic rules as the Second Age should extensively feature Sorcery (God-Learners) and Dragon Magic (EWF).

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Back to the initial topic: What to expect?

There will hopefully be some interesting new-ish magic rules as the Second Age should extensively feature Sorcery (God-Learners) and Dragon Magic (EWF).

I'd be very interested in how they portray the Malkioni if Sorcery is going to be God Learner magic (which it should be). Hopefully they won't be as ill-fitting as in RQ3 (having said that, they were probably meant to be).

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

I will go out on a limb here and call HW/HQ a failure. My local FLGS doesn't even stock it. I suspect that the majority of the sales have been to old RQ/Glorantha fans who want the source material but can't stomach playing the game (to which I'd add that it's generally some of the poorest Gloranthan material with a few exceptions).

I think you're allowing your dislike of the system to affect your judgement of it's financial success. It is reportedly selling pretty well.

 

[Urox]

I think you're allowing your dislike of the system to affect your judgement of it's financial success. It is reportedly selling pretty well.

I find this hard to believe. I just did a quick search on Amazon using Mongoose's Conan as a comparison -- most of the Conan stuff ranked around 500,000, while the HQ stuff was around 2,000,000 (MoLaD was over 4,000,000!) -- yes, this is really soft, but I think it's part of the overall picture.

Also, the HW catalog has been going out of print -- this is often indicative of small print runs and not being able to afford reprints.

And, if HW was successful, I don't think we'd be seeing MRQ (a competing product).

 

[atgxtg]

I think you're allowing your dislike of the system to affect your judgement of it's financial success. It is reportedly selling pretty well.

Wrong person quoted there. That was Urox's statment about how HQ is doing. Not mine.

By the standard of publishing 1 suppelement per quarter three years from now HQ would have to be considered a success. Issaries has produced much more than that. In fact, there is more HQ Glorantha material then RQ material, somethink like 5 times the amount, if not more. Some of it is very good too.

WHat HQ isn't doing is selling outside of its niche. HQ sells to Glorantha fans, peroid. THat is probably why Issaries has expressed an interest in using the core system for different settings, and also why MRQ is getting off the ground. A generic system that has customized sourcebooks can sell to gamers who aren't GLorantha fans.

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As for what I was expecting to see in MRQ, esspentially old RQ with a few changes, of which I expect to have mixed feeling about. I suspect I will like some changes, and not like others.

I am a bit concerned. From what I've seen through the previews and read on the boardds, the only change that I like so far is the combat maenuvering, and I haven't seen anything on how that works yet. None of the changes that I've seen so far show signs of being any sort of improvement.

TO be fair, I havene't seen enough of the new system to judge it yet.

 

[Neo]

Well I've played pretty much every incarnation of RQ over the years so playtesting the latest version for us was a pleasure. It has never been one of my favourite systems but by no means ones I disliked, though I always used to group it with other systems I liked such as MERP, a good system but deadly.

The new game has the familiarity of the older systems, but has some nice improvement especially in the combat and to some degree the magic areas.

Im also pleased to see the new rules are being used in more of an "apply to system of preference" fashion with various settings being planned too as I was never a huge fan of the Gloranthan world in a lot of ways it always felt like a cheap homage to the Warhammer world in a lot of ways. Though im sure the new incarnation will take the best of the old or re-jiggery pokey the rest into something new.

Also looking forward to the Arthurian setting book as im a big arthurian fan (though pendragon is still the daddy of king arthur games <G>).

In short thouhg i think new and old fans will inevitably find improvements they like and some things they dont its simply par for the course. Like they say you can please all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time..but you can't please ALL of the people ALL of the time.

For my own opinion thouhg I think the new system is a nice improvement and the material we have playtested so far, which has bene everything except the gloranthan book has been very well thought out and written.

 

[Urox]

By the standard of publishing 1 suppelement per quarter three years from now HQ would have to be considered a success.

I could be wrong here, but taking a quick look shows:

Initial Release 2000: Hero Wars, Narator's Book, Glorantha, Gloranthan Visions
2000: Anaxial's Roster, Thunder Rebels
2001: Storm Tribe, Barbarian Adventures
2002: Orlanth is Dead
2003: Dragon Pass, Imperial Lunar Handbook v1, HeroQuest
2004: Masters of Luck and Death, Men of the Sea, Gathering Thunder
2005: ?
2006: ?

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

Wrong person quoted there. That was Urox's statment about how HQ is doing. Not mine.

Sorry. I must have erased the wrong "quote" braket when I trimmed the message.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

I find this hard to believe.

It was stated either in the Glorantha Digest or the Glorantha Yahoo groups-I've forgotten which- that sales were in the thousands, and that very few rpgs sell in the ten thousands. The game is successful from a financial POV regardless of your dislike for it.

 

[RMS]

You only run about 1 extended contest per six game sessions? Wow, that is a lot different from what I've read, both in the book and on thr HQ mailing list.

Usually extended contests are saved for something big: when taking on the final enemy, etc. Ironically, I find the extended contest more interesting for less important side issues that are just fun to play out. Something like a Shield Push (or Trollball) contest is a great way to use extended contests to show the game flowing back and forth. It's a lot smoother than trying to rework the RQ combat system into something to support a sporting event.

The way I run is that everything is a simple contest unless the players specifically requests an extended contest. It needs to be something of great dramatic importance to warrant an extended contest and important enough to the player to take the time for it. Otherwise, roll a single die and move on.

As far a structure goes, without some form of stucture you don't have a game system at all-just a setting and a few realtive ratings descibing people is certain situations. Oh wait, that IS HeroQuest.

Correct. It is a game and a complete game. However, that completeness is only one step beyond having just a couple of resolution mechanics. There's no doubt that it's rules light and doesn't support certain styles of play at all. It also requires greater trust between GM and players than most RPGs due to the openness of it.

That might be alright for Greg Stafford who wants to tell stories on the monomyth, but it makes for a lousy RPG. THey would have been better off to go with a diceless aprraoch like Amber.

It's a great RPG for the right group. Like I said above, it just depends on the players and the GM. It probably does require more improvisation and interpretation from the GM than most games, but it works for me. My RQ/BRP games are pretty open and loose compared to how many people run them, I'm sure.

As far as the lethiality of contests-that sort of depends on the nature of the contests, and the participants. Having played an run a lot of Humakti, death comes up a bit more often than with other types of characters.

True. In all my years of running Glorantha, I've never had a single player want to run a Humakti, so I've never dealt with it in either RQ or HQ. Ironically, my only long term RQ character (only time I got to ever play) was a Humakti.

I agree with Urox, I'll take a Sever Spirit over the Death abilities that the Humakit get in the Storm Tribe book any day. THe HQ Humakti are grimer and talk tougher than thier RQ counterparts, but are no where near as tough. In HQ pretty much all the cults have combat magic that works out about the same as what the Humakti get.

I'd agree that HQ has tended to equalize combat cult's magic. (Aside: most cults in HQ don't get combat magic. Only the combat oriented cults do, but I assume that's what you meant.) Now it's more about situation and application than in RQ. I don't know that HQ Humakti are any more grim or tough talking than in RQ. They sound pretty much identical to the long RQIII writeup. Humakt has always been a much grimer (or grimmer?) god outside of Dragon Pass than he is there. Throughout Esrolia and in the Kingdom of War he's a nastier death god than the lovable? Heortling reconciled brother of Orlanth, where he's more of a strange storm god.

We probably are not too far off topic yet. THe topic is what we can expect from MRQ, and Robin Laws is one of the writers of the new edition , so I expect we will probably see a few HQ concepts migrate in MRQ.

My limited understanding is that he's one of the writers for the Glorantha source material for MRQ, not one of the system writers. I could well be completely wrong though.

I hope not many though. If MRQ is like HQ, it will fail miserably. RQ fans want RQ, and HQ fans alreadly have HQ. So a RQ that is too much like HHQ isn't going to sell to either group.

None of the previews reads anything like HQ and they all read like close relative of old RQ. I'm sure all of us old timers will have nits to pick on the new RQ, but I'm also certain that it'll be very recognizable as RQ.

 

[RMS]

Also, the HW catalog has been going out of print -- this is often indicative of small print runs and not being able to afford reprints.

You are correct that the HW catalog is going out of print. I'm sure much of that is because they'll clean those up and republish them as HQ supplements if they get reprinted, rather than republish as is. They've done this with the overview Glorantha supplement. I don't think any of the HQ supplements are out of print yet.

Btw, the print runs of most of these are already longer than the print runs for most of the early RQ classics, and nobody considers those to be poor marketplace performers.

And, if HW was successful, I don't think we'd be seeing MRQ (a competing product).

That doesn't follow. How is MRQ a competing product with HQ. It's pretty obvious from here, and elsewhere, that very few of us get along with both systems well. Allowing MRQ to be printed brings money into Issaries to support more HQ and provides a whole addition group of players to get hooked into Glorantha and potentially buy the HQ source material, even if they play it with RQ.

 

[Enpeze]

The new game has the familiarity of the older systems, but has some nice improvement especially in the combat and to some degree the magic areas.

May I ask you if the new game has a tactical combat system with squares or hexes? (like WFRP2 or d20)

Im also pleased to see the new rules are being used in more of an "apply to system of preference" fashion with various settings being planned too as I was never a huge fan of the Gloranthan world in a lot of ways it always felt like a cheap homage to the Warhammer world in a lot of ways.

I am also looking forward for MRQ covering new world settings. (especially Conan) Regarding Warhammer, dont forget that Glorantha is older than the warhammer world. And its...cheap maybe in some ways. In other ways its much more complex. Of course both worlds have the idea of chaos (warhammer even more) which comes from Moorcocks books.

For my own opinion thouhg I think the new system is a nice improvement and the material we have playtested so far, which has bene everything except the gloranthan book has been very well thought out and written.

Good to hear.

 

[Urox]

That doesn't follow. How is MRQ a competing product with HQ[?]

Well, it competes for the best Gloranthan authors, and theoretically could compete for gamers with limited budgets.

What I am afraid will happen is that either the Gloranthan material will dry up if a dispute arises between Issaries and Mongoose, or even worse, all of Mongoose's source material gets 'Gregged.'

If it isn't appearant, I am clearly in the RQ/Glorantha court. I am mostly indifferent to Mongoose supporting other game settings in MRQ (other than the historical fact that this was unsuccessful for RQ3).

But, what I am concerned about is MRQ/Glorantha being compromised to make it a generic d100 system.

Here is a question -- is d100 five times better or five times worse than d20? :twisted:

 

[Adept]

HeroQuest is nice and rules lite. The published material is mostly very high quality, and will be quite usable under the new RQ, I'm sure.

I like the HQ books, and find them useful, even though I run my Glorantha with a simulationist game engine (a modified 2d6 Unisystem)

 

[atgxtg]

I'd agree that HQ has tended to equalize combat cult's magic. (Aside: most cults in HQ don't get combat magic. Only the combat oriented cults do, but I assume that's what you meant.)

No, I meant most cults. Practially every cult in HQ has one or more subcults that give a combat affinity. If you look through the Storm Tribe book, every god gives some sort of combat ability, including Chalana Arroy (at least she just gets defensive magic). Now if you stop and look at the warrior cults they not only get Combat affities but some sort of sepcial powers like flying, contreolling the winds, or such. Essentially, it gives all the other cults the same combat abilities as the Humakt cult, but with another power or two to boot.
THat is what I don't like about the "sameness" of the HQ rules. In RQ there were rules about not stepping on a God's amjor field of expertise. THe example given was that since Humakt was the preeminent Death God in the area, no one else should get Sever Spirit as a resuaable spell.

Now it's more about situation and application than in RQ. I don't know that HQ Humakti are any more grim or tough talking than in RQ. They sound pretty much identical to the long RQIII writeup. Humakt has always been a much grimer (or grimmer?) god outside of Dragon Pass than he is there. Throughout Esrolia and in the Kingdom of War he's a nastier death god than the lovable? Heortling reconciled brother of Orlanth, where he's more of a strange storm god.[/qoute]

That goes a long way to explaining our differening viewpoints. Generally, game mechanics tend to fade into the background until situations crops up where they are needed to resolve something important. Combat, by it's nature, tends to be more deadly than most other activities, so the rules get used a bit more. With Humakti being professional warriors, they tend to get into more fights than most.

My limited understanding is that he's one of the writers for the Glorantha source material for MRQ, not one of the system writers. I could well be completely wrong though.

Maybe, I don't know. I have no idea who is wrting what for the new MRQ. All I've discovered is that Robin Laws and Ken Hite are involved with the project. I like Ken Hite's past stuff and don't like Robin Laws past stuff. I would have been a lot happier to have seen Steve Perrin's and Ray Tourney's named attached to the project though.

None of the previews reads anything like HQ and they all read like close relative of old RQ. I'm sure all of us old timers will have nits to pick on the new RQ, but I'm also certain that it'll be very recognizable as RQ.

None of the previes actually gives away much of anything about how the game works. We've see stats, skills, hit location, weapon, armor, and spells, but nothing that really tells how they are used. WE all all asuming that it is the same old system with a few changes, but we don't really know yet.

 

[Quire]

I was never a huge fan of the Gloranthan world in a lot of ways it always felt like a cheap homage to the Warhammer world in a lot of ways.

Mark, sorry mate, I usually wouldn't, but I HAVE to take that bait. SERIOUSLY, soz!

Sorry, but that really is a VERY ignorant viewpoint on a setting that has been in continual development since 1966! WFRP was developed...hmmm, a LITTLE while after that!

No offense meant mate. And if you've played 'pretty much every incarnation of RQ over the years' WHY did you miss which came first?

- Q

 

[atgxtg]

Im also pleased to see the new rules are being used in more of an "apply to system of preference" fashion with various settings being planned too as I was never a huge fan of the Gloranthan world in a lot of ways it always felt like a cheap homage to the Warhammer world in a lot of ways. Though im sure the new incarnation will take the best of the old or re-jiggery pokey the rest into something new.

How can a setting that was created in the 60s be a cheap homage to a setting that wasn't created until the 80s?

Or are you one of those people who think the Kinks ripped off You Really Got Me from Van Halen?

 

[Quire]

How can a setting that was created in the 60s be a cheap homage to a setting that wasn't created until the 80s?

ZACKLY! See my post above!

Good lord.

- Q

PS OH MY! And I'm actually GENUINELY slightly agitated about it, since WFRP's background is probably the most derivative I've EVER SEEN IN ANY GAME EVER!

 

[atgxtg]

How can a setting that was created in the 60s be a cheap homage to a setting that wasn't created until the 80s?

ZACKLY! See my post above!

Good lord.

- Q

PS OH MY! And I'm actually GENUINELY slightly agitated about it, since WFRP's background is probably the most derivative I've EVER SEEN IN ANY GAME EVER!

Unless he was reffering to HeroQuest and took, it to mean that Milton Bradley boardgame. THat I could understand. But otherwise, ouch-sort of poking at an abcessed tooth.

 

[Neo]

How can a setting that was created in the 60s be a cheap homage to a setting that wasn't created until the 80s?

Or are you one of those people who think the Kinks ripped off You Really Got Me from Van Halen?

I'd play nice If I were you, you may not share my opinion but because you do not doesnt make me any less entitled to it.

I didnt encounter glorantha in the 60's as the is before my time Im a 70's child im afraid, though an earlier version of the game was owned by me some years back, by and large our first significant regular experiences with RQ were with GW's version. though we later switched to a much preferred Avalon Hill edition.

Glorantha had many similarities to some "intrinsically" warhammer esque things and at the time warhammer and GW's version was also all the rage and im afraid Glorantha just seemed like a wonky homage, it could well have been the other way around I wouldnt know but we experienced the Gw world before glorantha so our opinion was formed in the order of our experiences im afraid.. Either way glorantha just didnt appeal to us.