Near Miss Meson Attacks and Damage

[Solomani666]

According to the rules, attacks from meson weapons are all or nothing rolls. Has anyone considered or have rules for 'near miss meson attacks (the explosion occurs next, to but not inside of the target ships hull.)

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[barnest2]

Hmm... would a meson create a detonation without very much mass being around? (By which I mean when it is in space)
Also, how would you determine whether the miss was a near miss or a complete miss?

note: I don't actually know why a meson gun makes a great big boom. Can someone help me?

 

[AndrewW]

Mesons are supposed to decay while within the enemy ship. If they don't I would say they wouldn't negate the armor.

 

[far-trader]

I recall an explanation of the weapon somewhere (can't recall where though) being along the lines of the "meson" causing a nuclear unbinding chain reaction (explosion) or some such in the target, the implication being a miss is complete, no mass to set off the chain reaction in means no ka-baoom.

 

[Solomani666]

Hmm... would a meson create a detonation without very much mass being around?

Yes. the target mass is not a factor

Also, how would you determine whether the miss was a near miss or a complete miss?

If the gunner were a PC I would use the effect modifier from his/her roll to hit. Absent of gunner PC's I would probably only apply the rule to spinal mount weapons.

Other than the above I do not have a definitive answer, hence the creation of this thread.

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[barnest2]

I recall an explanation of the weapon somewhere (can't recall where though) being along the lines of the "meson" causing a nuclear unbinding chain reaction (explosion) or some such in the target, the implication being a miss is complete, no mass to set off the chain reaction in means no ka-baoom.

Assuming that explanation, a close enough miss would do very limited damage (like 1 or 2d6), while anything off maybe a meter or two would have absolutely zero damage potential...

 

[barnest2]

Hmm... would a meson create a detonation without very much mass being around?

Yes. the target mass is not a factor

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So wt is it in your opinion that makes ships goes bang from meson hits?

 

[Solomani666]

Hmm... would a meson create a detonation without very much mass being around?

Yes. the target mass is not a factor

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So wt is it in your opinion that makes ships goes bang from meson hits?

My unserstanding has always been:
The particles decay in a preditermined point in space and go BANG!

I am open to the idea that I may have mis-read orinterpreted the description incorrectly.

Where you able to find your description yet?

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[barnest2]

Will a decaying particle just go bang on its own though? Would there not have to be some sort of catalyst. Just saying it goes bang isn't really a good enough explanation...

note that i'm not trying to say thats your fault, I have seen that explanation as well...

 

[rust]

Will a decaying particle just go bang on its own though?

Mesons are unstable and therefore decay, charged mesons usually decay
to electrons and neutrinos, uncharged mesons usually decay to photons -
but there is no bang whatsoever. Traveller's concept of mesons is outda-
ted and wrong, so to save the game you can ascribe any properties you
like to the "Traveller handwavium mesons".

 

[FreeTrav]

Actually, a decaying particle doesn't need a catalyst; it just decays. It's the same process as in radioactivity, really.

Don't be fooled by the name; the Traveller meson is not the real-world meson, and the real-world meson doesn't actually behave that way - though some of the science-for-the-layman descriptions might lead one to believe that it does. Treat the Traveller meson as being made of unobtainium particles manipulated by handwavium fields, such that the unobtainium particles are 'stressed' and then projected out of the 'meson gun'; they then travel through space, ignoring all matter, until the stress releases itself, causing the particle to disintegrate violently. The stress fields imposed by the handwavium fields in the 'meson gun', and the velocity with which the stressed unobtainium particles are projected, are precisely calculated to cause the spontaneous disintegration to occur at a preselected distance from the 'gun', which will hopefully be inside the enemy ship.

(Frankly, I'd drop the 'meson gun' name entirely in favor of the early Vilani term for what they were perceiving happening when it was used against them - "gashukubi", sudden death - and call it a 'gash gun', or maybe if you're feeling a little silly, a 'cooby gun'.)

 

[far-trader]

...to save the game you can ascribe any properties you
like to the "Traveller handwavium mesons".

Hence my use of "mesons" in quotes above. Though I would say that ascribing any properties is a bit overstated. If the rules say that a miss does no damage then any properties one ascribes should account for that.

The explanation of them acting as a catalyst for some matter conversion process works. So a miss is a miss. A near hit (per barnest2's within meters) might do some reduced (surface) damage, though at the scales and velocities of space combat a miss by meters seems implausible except by referee fiat. Or possibly an attacker's choice? Perhaps as a shot across the bow or an attempted disabling shot? Pulling one's "meson" fist punch if you like. I'd make that a normal attack roll with success being the reduced damage (attacker's choice? of how many dice damage dropped?).

But for random near hits (there are no near misses ) I'd say no, it just doesn't happen.

...and FreeTrav's post above is probably even better for the explanation of what "meson" guns are and do. Though it doesn't explain that the rules say a miss does no damage, does it?

EDIT: I've also never been comfortable with the idea that one can precisely determine the small area for the "decay" of the "mesons" with the accuracy needed. Not given the ability of the target to change it's vector. Not if the distance is large enough. Though I suppose that could be factored into the to hit chance I've wondered if something more might be at play. I've toyed with the idea that "meson" guns work by interacting with the targeted ship's jump drive. So it spontaneously "decays" once it crosses the jump "grid" and goes boom inside the armour. And as a nice (imo, for mtu) side effect small craft (not having jump drives or "grids") are immune to "meson" gun fire. Anyway, just another thought about the whole thing.

 

[rust]

Though I would say that ascribing any properties is a bit overstated.

Bad wording on my part, what I did mean was "any properties required to
save the game".

In the end the meson gun is an advanced particle accelerator weapon with
the somewhat surprising ability to "teleport" a particle through a starship
hull into the starship, where the decay of the particle transfers quite a lot
of energy to the starship interior, resulting in an explosion.

In my view a "near miss" would probably result in some nice fireworks in
space, but without anything to transfer the energy to I would not expect
an explosion of any kind.

 

[barnest2]

EDIT: I've also never been comfortable with the idea that one can precisely determine the small area for the "decay" of the "mesons" with the accuracy needed. Not given the ability of the target to change it's vector. Not if the distance is large enough. Though I suppose that could be factored into the to hit chance I've wondered if something more might be at play. I've toyed with the idea that "meson" guns work by interacting with the targeted ship's jump drive. So it spontaneously "decays" once it crosses the jump "grid" and goes boom inside the armour. And as a nice (imo, for mtu) side effect small craft (not having jump drives or "grids") are immune to "meson" gun fire. Anyway, just another thought about the whole thing.

This... this is actually an awesome idea . It makes more sense as well (As much as sci-fi weaponry does...

 

[rust]

I like the idea, too, but it would mean that meson guns cannot be used
against system defense boats, space stations or planets, as these also
have no jump grids.

 

[far-trader]

I like the idea, too, but it would mean that meson guns cannot be used
against system defense boats, space stations or planets, as these also
have no jump grids.

Yep All good imo

 

[rust]

Hmm ... this should lead to warships as combinations of a jump tug (vul-
nerable to meson weapons) and the actual warship (no jump drive, so
not vulnerable to meson weapons), with the jump tug transporting the
warship close to the battlefield and then retreating to a (hopefully) safe
position while the warship advances into combat.

 

[far-trader]

Yep, classic Battle Rider / Carrier designs, now with more better goodness (and no need for Meson Screens).

Of course there will still be some capital ships with jump drives and meson screens. Not every opponent will have "meson" guns (yeah, I really need to adopt new name idea instead of the quotes, Kubi Gun sounds good to me not silly at all ...much).

 

[DFW]

The mesons are accelerated to relativistic velocities in order to "slow" the decay. The speed to which they are accelerated determine the time dilation effect and hence when they end up decaying. There is no additional mass needed. Any blast effect is basically from the heat generated. If it happens in vacuum, no blast, just rad damage.

So, let's say you accel to .75 c in order to hit the target, 225,000 kps. Being off by even 1% on the timing has the mesons decaying 2,250 kilometers away. Let's say it is a finer control. 100 times better. Those are possibly 22 kilometer increments on a "miss". Very tricky. I guess it's possible and I'd use rad damage with no other effect.

Any near misses would be due to the target ships movement during the travel time to target most likely.